Dr. Leslie Gruis

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, everyone, to the Tron podcast. This is your host, Rashad Woods. Today I have very special guest, highly acclaimed, very accomplished individual, Dr. Leslie Grus, a former member of the NSA, author, accomplished speaker, and privacy advocate. Thank you very much for your time. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Thank you, Rashad. [00:00:14] Speaker A: Oh, listen, I'm blown away because, you know, like, the topic that you're a subject matter expert in, you're ahead of the curve because now everybody's realizing all their data is out there. So please, by all means, just explain your background and very many accomplishments that you've had. [00:00:29] Speaker B: So let me tell you this, and I know that I did check your program, and you tend to let people go on about their lives. So let me tell you a little bit about my history. So I grew up in Washington, D.C. on Capitol Hill, of all places. And when I was five, I knew I was going to be a mathematician when I grew up. And I was actually very lucky because my parents were very progressive for the time, and they encouraged me. So, so here we are today. I went to college and then graduate school, and then I went to work for the National Security Agency, where I worked as a mathematician for 30 years, doing all sorts of really cool things, many of which I can't talk about. [00:01:11] Speaker A: No, I totally understand. I think one of the more interesting things when it comes to privacy is how sometimes society didn't keep up with the technologies that are available. The things you can talk about. How did it start since inception, where, you know, we're dealing with phone books, we're dealing with, you know, the Yellow Pages. And then it evolves to immediately transfer a little information, like, you know, with the Internet, smartphones, et cetera. [00:01:33] Speaker B: So, Rashad, in my first book, I actually talk about the evolution of technology and the challenges it posed to privacy. So the first big technology, of course, that came along for communications was the telegraph. And that started out challenging privacy in all sorts of ways that people kind of never expected, but they adapted to it. So we. We got the telegraph in the U.S. let's say, in the. And after that, of course, came the telephone in the 1870s. So that challenged privacy in a brand new way. And that was followed by wireless communications at the turn of the century with Mr. Marconi and radio. And then things just kind of kept spilling up from there. Right after that, there was a lot of evolution. And eventually we came to computers after World War II. So that was one of our big benefits that came out of World War II was the privatization of computers and the entry of computers into the commercial scene. And also the government scene, for that matter. And it wasn't until the 1950s that Congress started thinking about this privacy of massive amounts of information when the first computers came along. Interestingly enough, the first computer in the government was delivered in 1951. And it went to. Yes, it was giant. Right. It took up a giant room and it went to the Census Bureau. That shouldn't be a big surprise, really. [00:03:08] Speaker A: No doubt. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Right. But Congress started to talk about privacy as an issue when they introduced computers into the government. But it would take until 1967 before the Freedom of Information act came along, which wasn't really everything everybody wanted, which is often the case, you know, when we create new laws here. But we got a much Stronger law in 1974 with the Privacy Act. And I'm sure everybody has seen the Privacy act notice where you sign away your rights at the bottom of the page and give the government more information about yourself. [00:03:44] Speaker A: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I think too often we actually just scroll through it because we don't want to read the details. Not knowing we actually. What we gave away. You know, I'm guilty of it myself, because you're like, how important really is that? And then unfortunately, when you get the spam calls, when you find out all these solicitation emails, you start like doing a double take on what you really signed up for and gave away. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Right. So the privacy notice that you usually sign with the government is really, really short compared to the privacy notifications that you get when you sign up for name your favor social media. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Right, right. I thought what was really interesting was when you talked about the implementation of technology was I watched a documentary once on the creation of the transatlantic cable line, and I thought it was so interesting because, you know, here it was, it goes off the coast of Nova Scotia and then it connects to Europe. I actually talked to a gentleman who lived just not too far from where that actually was located in Europe. And then they brought the two boats across the ocean, embedded them on the bottom of the ocean because they wanted to find real time markets from US to Europe at the same time. And that was the beginning of the fiber optic Internet. And those lines are some still in use across the globe, which was amazing. When I found out that those were still in use, it was incredible how technology is expanded and information came at such a rapid speed even then. [00:04:58] Speaker B: So it's. It's interesting. There's actually a long history. The first transatlantic cable was for telegraph. It actually came in the 1860s and Queen Victoria got to play with it. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:05:13] Speaker B: But the cable line, the first one, failed shortly thereafter. And so there was a lot of technological evolution that went on with discovering how do you create a cable line that's going to go under the ocean and it's going to be able to sustain itself and last for years? Because it's a lot of trucks. [00:05:32] Speaker A: It's unbelievable how that. I mean, like I said, when they showed the image of how many of them are still across the globe from when they found out that one was successful after multiple failures, you're just like, oh, my gosh. Right. It was incredible to see that. So what drew you to the NSA in the first place? How do you go from math to the nsa? Like, what drew you to that? And what. [00:05:51] Speaker B: So that's the rest of the story about when I was five years old. [00:05:54] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:56] Speaker B: So growing up on Capitol Hill, Capitol Hill was kind of a strange place for children in those days. It wasn't necessarily all of it a wonderful neighborhood. So you had to be pretty vigilant about your surroundings. For anybody that grew up in a city, that's your sixth sense, right? Your city sense, right. That you kind of always know what's going on around you. But anyway, growing up on Capitol Hill, we pretty much knew many of our neighbors. And one of our neighbors, who was about four doors down, were the Friedmans, William and Elizabeth Friedman. And my parents knew this. I didn't know this when I was five, but William and Elizabeth were the mother and father of American Cryptology, which is a study of codes and sciences. So William had worked for the Army Signal Corps back during World War I, and then had worked with the military during World War II, helping to break the Japanese codes, and then eventually was at NSA briefly, very late in his career. NSA wasn't created until 1952. So he had this long, remarkable history. And his wife had actually also been a code breaker, and she chased rum runners during the 1920s. Yeah, it is amazing. And there are books about both of them if you want to read up on them. But anyway, by this point in time, when I knew them as a little kid growing up on Capitol Hill in the early 1960s, they had moved to Capitol Hill for a very specific purpose. They had actually lived in Bethesda, outside of Washington before that, and had a nice suburban home and raised their family and all that. But after they retired from government work, they got very interested in the authorship of Shakespeare's plays. And so they started doing research on who wrote Shakespeare. And they were convinced, I believe it was Francis Bacon. But on Capitol Hill, not very Far from where we are, are all living or were all living is something called the Folger Shakespeare Library, and that is a repository of many first folios of Shakespeare. It's an academic center of excellence. And it's also a small museum which was recently renovated and I haven't been there yet. And it also has a small reproduction of the Globe Theater that they put plays on. [00:08:16] Speaker A: It's fantastic. [00:08:17] Speaker B: And so they moved to the Hill to be close to this, to the Folger Shakespeare Library. So that's why our lives collided. Right? I was the Hill brat because my parents were originally staffers in Washington and they were living down the street from me, and I got to know them, and William Friedman actually encouraged me in mathematics. So here's this little old man wearing a beret who walks with a cane and has this little teeny weeny mustache saying, you guys can be anything you want. If you want to be a mathematician, you can be a mathematician. And he was basically saying, you go, girl. [00:08:55] Speaker A: I think it's incredible too, because, you know, I say this very respectfully. That's not a field that was really pushed heavily upon women at that time in a match. [00:09:01] Speaker B: And so between him and my very progressive parents. My parents were both from the Midwest, but they were very. My mother was a gentlewoman farmer, so she was used to doing her own thing all the time. So she was very liberated. So I was encouraged to do whatever I wanted to do. And what I wanted to do was math. [00:09:21] Speaker A: And you know what else? I think sometimes when people look at math, they don't look at the actual. It's. It's a very narrow perspective of it because they think of like that geometry class or algebra class that they didn't enjoy, and they don't realize that a lot of statistical items come from it and theories and. And to your point, privacy in the nsa, in your career, how math can take you more than just sitting down and calculating something. It can become about statistics and probabilities and. And things that are much larger than just the piece of paperwork or homework that's in front of you. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:09:51] Speaker A: That's amazing. So you were the first President of the NSA's Women in Mathematics Society. How did. How did. And what got you into that role? [00:09:58] Speaker B: So. So I went to work for NSA in 1987, and there were no more women PhD mathematicians hired there really for several years. And there was a concern among the female mathematicians who were senior to me at that point in time, that we needed to do better at recruiting women at NSA as We all know now women have made tremendous contributions in the science. Absolutely right. So the women at NASA, the women who were code breakers, the women who joined the military, and I'm going to get it right. Wrong. Is it six triple A? The women who did the poster thing. [00:10:43] Speaker A: I haven't watched that Netflix movie yet. I need to watch that. My wife wants to watch that very bad. [00:10:46] Speaker B: It's an amazing movie. So women made a lot of contributions, especially during wartime, not in, you know, warfare situations necessarily, but in supporting troops. Absolutely right. So women contributed to code breaking during World War II in a significant way. So it was very natural to think, at least for us, that women should be making a bigger contribution in mathematics. Well, that's well known now. It wasn't well known popularly then. [00:11:17] Speaker A: Correct, Correct. [00:11:18] Speaker B: So anyway, we decided we would hold a BIG symposium at NSA and that took the place in 1993. And we invited at least 100 people in from the academic community outside of NSA, many of them women. We also focused on HBCU schools as well to look at opportunities for women there. And we told them about our work, about what we did. And we had real mathematicians give talks on work they were doing or related to work they were doing. And as a result of that, what came out of that was one the Women in Mathematics Society at nsa, and I was its first president. [00:12:03] Speaker A: That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Right. So among the lessons we learned then is how do you make NSA not such a rough and tumble guy kind of place and make it appealing to women. Right. And you really have to think about what are young women thinking. Thinking about? Right. So when it comes to young women, you know, they're thinking about what is my role as a professional, what is my role as a spouse, what is my role as a mother. It's a very confusing time. And Certainly in the 90s, even as today, women are still trying to find their way that balance between work and family and spouse and whatever else they want to do. Right. So one thing we did was we decided we were going to help the recruiters, hopefully in a good way. Right. So the recruiters still had to do the mechanics of the hiring process. We started sending lots and lots of women to the joint math meetings, which always take place in January, which is where the academic community sends its students to get jobs, basically. A lot of them are academic jobs, but there are also other recruiters there. So NSA was a big recruiter there. We sent lots of women and we put the personal touch on the recruiting process. So while they were Filling out paperwork and doing formal interviews. We were also there at the booth with handouts and the handouts talked about some of the family friendly aspects of working at nsa, which of course we had agitated for. Right. So we made sure that they understood that when they got to the point that they wanted to take time off because they just had a child, that was going to be okay. Correct, Right. We were going to be flexible. Why? Because we spend. NSA spends a tremendous amount of money just to get somebody through a security. [00:13:59] Speaker A: I can only imagine. I can only imagine. [00:14:01] Speaker B: And then gobs more money for the next three to five years in training them. Right. So you don't want somebody to come in, spend four years at NSA and say, well, okay, since you guys can't be flexible for me, I'm going to go off and be a mommy now. Right, right. [00:14:17] Speaker A: That's expensive. [00:14:18] Speaker B: So we wanted to show flexibility. So we started letting people take time off or even sharing employment billets, working part time. We had dads that took paternity leave. We got nursing mothers rooms. These are all things you're not going to learn about at a normal interview because you don't ask those questions. Right. But we were boots on the ground there to help them understand what a great environment, what a friendly environment it was for young women to come into and how we be there to support them while they went through these other big life trans. [00:14:53] Speaker A: It's funny because when, you know, when you're doing all these recruiting, I keep thinking of that, that good luck and good night movie. I mean, I'm getting it wrong where everybody just has headphones on, they're smoking a cigarette at the table and it's just like very stoic, Right. And like it's all male dominated. I'm thinking of like a madman thing in my head where like all of a sudden you have people that like, hey, you know, we do have another group of highly qualified individuals. And then unfortunately, none of these people know how to actually quote, unquote, talk to them in a, you know, in a manner that would be professional. They're skilled and they have different needs that are completely different from your own. Right. So to your point, your boots on the ground, like, hey, this is a viable career. There are other options out there as far as time off, mother time, nursing, things that, with all due respect, a male at that time just wouldn't even think of asking those questions because it's like, this is your start date, this is your security clearance, etc. Etc. So it's definitely a different perspective that you got a chance to recruit women into that field. So that's amazing work. [00:15:48] Speaker B: It was, it was a terrific fun too. It was hard at the time, but it was terrific fun. And the guys kind of knew they had to put up or shut up, right? Because the women were putting them in their place and saying, you know what, if you want more women to do your work, you gotta flex down the guard a bit. [00:16:05] Speaker A: So you obviously retired from there and then you started tutoring students in stem. Like, what made you like switching. Switch gears and change fields to be. It's still what you started in. But how did you get into education? [00:16:16] Speaker B: That goes back to my childhood when I was probably at about seventh grade. We didn't have computers then. Okay. So. So I would spend countless hours on the telephone helping all my friends do their algebra homework. [00:16:29] Speaker A: That's awesome. [00:16:30] Speaker B: So I, I've been tutoring math for a really long time. It's just been an intermittent engagement. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Where were you when I was in school? Because that sure could have just, you. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Know, I, I can help you now if you have. [00:16:41] Speaker A: Yeah, well, just a quick sidebar. Like, my oldest, I have three daughters. Nah, 11, nine and five. And my oldest one, you know, when she did need help, I'm like, listen. I mean, unless it's literally like plus and minus. I mean, the math that she's doing is crazy, right? You know, she's an advanced method. I didn't realize when you're that far away from it, how hard it is to actually do it again. And it's, it's mind blowing. Like it's a skill that that's on. You have to keep utilizing it. Because I think computers to a degree and calculators to a degree, we've lost how to actually do them. [00:17:13] Speaker B: And I will say when I tutor younger kids, because it started out as high school and then of course, it quickly devolved into all ages at the secondary school level. But when I teach the younger kids and I look at, for example, Eureka math homework, I have no idea what they're doing. Right. I just look at it. I'm like, why are we doing this again? Because it's, it's not the way I learned it. Okay. It's very sort of touchy feely. Like, let's draw pictures and pick out boxes. Right. And I have to stop for a few minutes and figure out why we're doing this exercise and why this should help them. And in some cases it really doesn't help them. Right. So I go back to a more traditional approach. Right, Right. Or I get out the visual aid. I was right. We start counting poker chips. [00:17:57] Speaker A: So like. Well, that was my, that's the interesting part. So just real quick, do you feel as though, because technology has chat GPT a lot of answers for people and questions that it's helped or hurt? Because it's kind of a mix of it, right? Like when it comes to something like math and sciences, you can only kind of fake the funk for so long before people are going to realize you can or can't do it. Am I correct in that? [00:18:19] Speaker B: That's, that's perfectly true. I actually had a little sixth grade boy the other day. I was, I'm teaching him reading and writing. Right. Punctuation is optional for this child right now, which is okay, I can, I can work with that. But anyway, he told a story in his, his essay about just copying his friend's homework, the answers for math class. And he came to this amazing realization that the information actually doesn't go into your brain that way. No, no, it really doesn't. Okay, so, okay, he's in sixth grade, so he's like what, 12? Okay. I guess that's a good realization to come to when you're 12, that cheating doesn't work. Right. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Better late than never. [00:18:55] Speaker B: So I think there are. Yeah, exactly. So kind of watching what's going on in math and the sciences and in reading and in writing and the introduction of digital technology into the classroom. And I'm actually working on an article on this right now, so I've been reading a lot as well. So let me just give you the disclaimer, Rashad. I'm not a lawyer, but I talk about law stuff. I'm not trained in education, but I talk about education stuff. So I have to read a lot. And I'm a pretty avid reader, so I've been reading a lot about this subject and there's just some remarkable things. I think probably it all started with this one laptop per child trend that we had many years ago where everybody thought they were actually entitled to having a computer because it was going to be such a great force multiplier for education. And that's a lot like the mindset about technology is today, right? As people launch headlong into adapting to technologies without stopping and thinking about what they're giving away. Right? And this is something we see the big social media platforms argue about with the regulators, right? Regulators say, I want to regulate what you're doing. They say, oh no, you'll stifle innovation. We'll fall behind the rest of the World, it's terrible. Right. So everybody thinks, wow, if it's technology, it must be good, right? [00:20:27] Speaker A: Of course. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Right. And I'm, I'm not convinced in the classroom it necessarily is good. I, I, I do think, in answer to your question about AI, that there's probably a tremendous force multiplier there for the teachers, the poor beleaguered teachers. Right. I could have never been a full time teacher. Okay. I work 20 hours a week and that's all I can. Okay. But to come up with, you know, lesson plans and track 20, 25 kids in your class, maybe you have some of the same ones all day long and you have the good ones and then you have the not so good ones that really get on your last nerve. Right. I can't imagine. So I think AI and technology and digital delivery of content and education is a tremendous boon for teachers. Right. It's going to help them with lesson plans, it's going to help them with collecting homework. It might even help them with grading homework. Standardized testing has moved online or the annual assessments that the public schools do. Even our little kids are doing those online. I had a third grader that was doing it online. Right. [00:21:43] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah. That's great for the educators and I'm sure for the administration. They love the streamlining of student evaluations and grades. Of course, it also means that their, their paper bill for making copies of things probably isn't as big as it once was. So they're probably saving money on office supplies, they're spending money, cloud space and infrastructure. Right. And laptops and, you know, school issued tablets. Right. But I can see some really good economic arguments and also sort of mental health arguments for schools and for teachers. Right. If it helps prevent teacher burnout, you know, they've got to see it as a tremendous advantage. But of course, the bad side is what it does to the kids. Right. So what does it do to the kids? Well, first of all, it indoctrinates them into looking at a screen all the time. So how many arguments have I had with fourth, fifth and sixth graders about reading a hard copy book? And if I win that battle, then they want a graphic novel. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Right. It has to be visual. It can't just be the straight words on there. Right. It has to be like, because that requires intense focus, you know, attention to detail and you can't have anything deviating and grabbing your attention elsewhere. [00:23:04] Speaker B: Right. So I think the screen in a lot of ways has done a great disservice to our kids in terms of attention spans. You know, face it, screens are addictive, okay? It's like any drug, it's like alcohol, it's like heroin for kids, right? And so when we let them start using these as a way to keep them distracted because mommy and daddy are busy, it's very, it's a very subtle way that it threatens young minds. You think a little bit is fine, but then it becomes a little bit more until you have a full blown addict, right? There's a lot of books out right now about doing digital detoxes for kids. Just taking all the screens away and making them build interactions with teachers, with peers. There's a lot of talk about kids not having just plain old playtime. I don't know about you, but my summer as a kid I was turned loose on my grandfather's farm for the day. [00:24:06] Speaker A: You know, my summers were kind of a mixture of summer camps and like YMCAs and things like that. And so it was definitely not just wake up, watch TV for five hours a day, you know what I mean? So it's, it's certainly evolved with that, you know. But nowadays parents, unfortunately, you know, sometimes some of them work multiple jobs and the easy, I don't say the easy thing to do because I want to disparate, but you can default to just giving them a TV and, or a device. So that way it's quiet and you have a peaceful moment. [00:24:33] Speaker B: And I get that that's sort of the changing nature of our family structures, right? Is there far more women that are and were working during my childhood? So it's different. And yet I think we actually at our house right now, we have three new kittens and I watch the kittens play, right? And roughhouse and chase. They're rehearsing adult life skills, right? They're learning how to take care of themselves, they're learning how to hunt, they're learning how to chase, they're looking, they're learning how to be aware of their environment, right? It's really a remarkable thing to watch. If I had a small child, I guess I'd watch them, but I don't have one of those and I'm not getting one, so I already did that. Thanks. It was great, but just remarkable. And I think about it, I think, well, instead of having my 3 year olds and 4 year olds come for tutoring, they should be playing somewhere, right? They should be in a Montessori class somewhere, right? Where it's all experiential and hands on. And they're doing that spatial intelligence development, which so many of my, my Older kids are for sure. [00:25:41] Speaker A: Unfortunately the attention spans aren't even there. When I think of privacy, I always think of the great quote because we have all these social media platforms and it says, you know, if it's free, you're not the customer, you're the product being sold. And I always like, you know, it's funny because you kind of stick to that. You're like, yeah, you know, we've all had that moment where we've looked up something and the next, you know, you get a bunch of emails about it. And then I've even, and I know this sounds crazy, I've been talking about stuff in my house before and then I'll turn on our smart tv. I'm like, how in the heck is that suddenly a recommended viewing on YouTube for me? And I didn't even have a. And you're like, you start getting this thought in your head, like these devices really can hear what I'm saying. Like you buy the Alexa device and people are like, oh it's great, I can play my own song from Alexa. Like no, they're recording every single thing that you know, love and enjoy to sell you other services and even like your ring doorbell, camera, it's for security but it's also to, you know, you're letting that into your house. And just really quick point when I was seeing something that you wrote where even like the video game that you download, it can show your reaction time to an insurance company, you know, if you're not pressing buttons fast enough, right Then all of a sudden they're like, oh, that could be the offset of Alzheimer's. I was like, that's crazy. That is absolutely crazy. [00:26:51] Speaker B: I think you should be concerned about that for the general public. And when people ask me about, you know, the government abridging citizens privacy, I'll say, well from my experience we did everything we could to respect privacy. When I was still working in the government I said who you need to really be worried about is all the online platforms for sure, right what they're doing. And I would say you should take those concerns and then apply them to digital technology in your kids schools. And think about it. One, a school issued laptop and tablet, they've got monitoring software on it and oh by the way, you signed away your rights privacy when you signed for that computer or laptop. So I would be that very difficult Luddite parent today who would tell them to keep their technology and then I was going to buy my kid their own, his or her own tablet or laptop for school and they're going to have to figure out how to deliver the content to my kid. That's not my problem. [00:27:55] Speaker A: You know, I'll be the first to raise my hand and say it. Didn't even think anything of asking that question. Because we're so. Because we're so accustomed to saying, oh, my kid has to have. The curriculum, has to have access to this information. And to your point, they have a camera, they have your WI fi access to your house. You know, you've let and out, for all intents and purposes, we lock our doors, we secure our homes to everything else. And then you willingly bring that right in. Right. [00:28:20] Speaker B: There's a. There's a very scary story, and I think it's on. It was dramatized in Amazon's Amazon prime of a boy. I think he was 15, at a high school where the school actually used the school computer to access and take pictures of the student in his bedroom. [00:28:40] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. [00:28:41] Speaker B: And this happened all the way back, I believe, in 2011. [00:28:45] Speaker A: That's it. 14. [00:28:46] Speaker B: This is not new. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:28:48] Speaker B: This is not new. And I would not have it in my house. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Right? [00:28:52] Speaker B: Okay. I was the person that mourned for days because when we got our new H VAC unit, I had to have a smart thermostat connected to the Internet in order for it to work correctly. And I'm like, no, it's spying on me, right? It wants to know how many people are at my house. The bad guys will know, you know, we're not home because the unit's not working, because the bodies aren't warming up the environment and the air conditioner is not working hard. Right? That's where my brain. [00:29:24] Speaker A: It's almost like, you know, it's. I say this respectfully, I'm just joking. Obviously. It's like the Luddits, right? When it turns out like, oh, they destroyed, you know, the textile machines and you know, in England at that time, because they're like, you will not replace us. So, like, you know, here you are, like disadversion to technology. But at the same time, in order to do even like this podcast, we need to kind of give up a little bit of ourselves, right? Like, okay, I, I need to be kind of brought along begrudgingly. So how is there a balance between these technology companies and governments? You know, privacy advocates, there's multiple layers involved. There's liabilities, there's legals, there's privacy. And then you have these giant tech companies that obviously hoard billions of data of people every single day. [00:30:05] Speaker B: So I will Mention to you, just in case you're interested, that all the owners of the giant tech companies pretty much now have houses in Washington D.C. but of course it's much more convenient, I guess to go to dinner at the White House if you have a place to, you know, sleep that night. So I think there is a lot of technology, there are a lot of technology companies whose CEOs are leaning pretty hard on the government right now to create favorable laws, judicial outcomes. And I don't want to digress into the foibles of our current administration, but we are supposed to have three independent branches of government, as I recall from teaching US history. Right. The executive branch is supposed to be independent from the legislative branch, is supposed to be independent from the judicial branch. Right. And so I keep hoping that we will see a restored balance among the branches in order to see more privacy preferring practices. And the jury's still out right now. We haven't had a new sort of generic privacy law at the federal level. It's really sunk its teeth in at this point in time. We do have some forcing functions though, and this is kind of interesting. And again, I'm not a social scientist, but I see it really as a very interesting experiment in the social sciences. You have a forcing function from the east, namely the Europeans, right. Who adopted gdpr, which is all about privacy and security of your personal data. And so what happens? Well, if the Europeans enforce this regulation for all their citizens, which they're trying to do, then even American companies who wanted to do business have to comply, are going to have to subscribe to this. Right. So this is kind of the high watermark for privacy right now. Right? Then in the US we still have kind of a free for all going on here, but the states have been moving out. I think the last time I checked, there were actually something like 19 states that had passed privacy laws. They're all different flavors. Of course. Illinois is very big on biometrics, one of the first ones out of the gate. There were two laws that were passed, California. Right. So now if you're a US company and you have to comply with GDPR and all the individual state level laws across the 50 United States. [00:32:50] Speaker A: Very complicated, very complicated. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Now it might almost be worth lobbying for a federal law at this point in time to preempt the state laws. And of course that's going to be the crux of the argument between the states and the Fed. Federalism is whether federal law, right. Will federal preempt what the states have already done. And so that's probably Part of the reason you see that Congress has been unable to move forward on privacy law. [00:33:19] Speaker A: You got a billion dollar lobbyist, you got. And then it. I saw one of your podcasts where it varies per town. You know, they're going to be more tendency towards the larger cities than they would the smaller cities who, you know, may have, who obviously have more sway, have more money at their, at their disposal to sway certain laws and to lobby certain, certain levels of government. [00:33:37] Speaker B: Well, I think you will also see though, there'll be a changing interest, a changing demographic, changing pressures on congresspeople because of all the data centers that are being built in remote locations, many of them. Or the nuclear power plants. Right. Which local communities see as wonderful things because it brings employment into communities and for example, the Rust Belt. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Right, for sure. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Right. So it's not just going to be what the cities do. It's going to be how they position themselves, how the companies position themselves across America in more remote locations, and what the implications are when it comes to the representative or the senator having to vote yay or nay on a privacy. [00:34:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, just real quick, I thought that's one of the reasons, I know, I saw on your article on LinkedIn, whereas like 23andMe, still, even though they were going through bankruptcy, we're still actually hoarding onto people's personal information that they submitted, even though people asked for deletion. And it, to me, it was crazy because, you know, whether it's 23andMe or some of those DNA things, I never filled any one of them out because I would read the privacy laws or I'd watch like a show, and then it turns out they can, they work, you know, with, they can submit your information to any law enforcement agency across the country. And I said, you know, I just, I'm not, I'm not a serial killer. But I didn't feel comfortable with them being able to release that information. Information, you know, at the drop of a hat. [00:35:03] Speaker B: I was just going to ask you that. I said, is there something you're not telling me? [00:35:06] Speaker A: I would definitely not say that to an NSA person. Former nsa. That's. No, no doubt. It just, yeah. When you started reading about who they could give that information to, I just was uncomfortable with it, you know, and. [00:35:16] Speaker B: That'S, that's an argument a lot of people make. Right. When I talk to people and I say I'm really into privacy, and they say, oh, well, you know, that's irrelevant because privacy is dead. And I said, oh, really? I said, that's great. Terrific. And if it's a young person, I'll say, okay, open up your phone and give it to me because I would like to read through all your chat and your posts, please, if there is no privacy, because that's kind of like the diary used to be. [00:35:38] Speaker A: It's very private. It's very private. [00:35:41] Speaker B: It's private, okay. And I, I have older adults say, oh well, privacy is not relevant anymore. It's like, really, you don't like privacy in your home? Because I mean, there's a, there's a tenant that comes from British law that says your home is your castle and the government can't invade it. Right? You've got fourth amendment rights. And guess what, by the way, if you remember your U.S. history, the whole reason we have all those amendments is those are the powers we, the citizens hold back from the government so it doesn't abridge them. It's our guarantee that democracy will be here tomorrow. Right? So no privacy, no democracy. It's very easy. [00:36:25] Speaker A: And unfortunately, sometimes we as citizens voluntarily give it up because we want to download the latest app, we want to buy the watch the latest show. You know, we're so I'm guilty of it because it's like, excuse me, you don't even think twice. But then it's tough to put that genie back in the bottle at the same time. So it's, it's definitely a very high balancing act and I don't envy the people trying to balance the two. Between having a large tech company in your backyard as an employer versus trying to serve your constituents for privacy levels, that's a very, very tough job. [00:36:54] Speaker B: I sometimes feel like a one woman band. But I do my best and I think, you know, the place I can probably have the biggest impact is among youth. Right? So I talk to them about these things when the opportunity comes up. I also talk to parents as well. So for example, in addition to all the stuff your school issued computer might be doing, I can also have other measurements of your child's behavior online that can be used to do a cognitive assessment on your child. Right? You go to the Consumer Electronics show in Las Vegas in January, they show all these cognitive headsets you can put on little students to monitor their brain activity. Completely terrifying to me. And I think there is a place for those in this world. But those things belong in a clinical setting with a physician or with somebody who has to subscribe to HIPAA rules, right? Where all the health information is protected. And so again, when you think about letting your kid have a school issued Laptop or tablet. You gotta wonder, what sort of cognitive assessment are they actually doing? Judged based on your child's online behavior. That's true. It is true. They can make an argument. The teachers are always making assessments of kids because we have to talk about readiness for the next grade. Right. But this, this digital assessment that may be possible now, this surreptitious and sneaky assessment that may be going on. Something I'm very uncomfortable with, especially when you think about all the breaches. [00:38:32] Speaker A: Oh my goodness. Oh, my goodness. [00:38:33] Speaker B: That happened in the school system. Oh, for sure. And they have no requirement to subscribe to hipaa. There is no other law that protects those kids data. [00:38:43] Speaker A: Oh, really? From a school level. [00:38:44] Speaker B: So it can't. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I did not. [00:38:46] Speaker B: So I would. I would really seriously think hard about letting my kid have a school issued digital device. I'd be the Luddite right in the room. The technologist is a Luddite. [00:38:59] Speaker A: I think I'll have to do a double take when school starts in the fall about whether or not I want to do one or not. Because talking to you suddenly opened my eyes up to what I might have let inside of my house. So, first of all, and I want to thank you very much for your time and what you've carved out for me. I mean, I could probably pick your brain for another hour and a half on the things that you have experienced and learned, but that'd be great. You know, I'll sign whatever disclosure I need to do not, you know, like, be tied up in a room. [00:39:26] Speaker B: I'll have my lawyer brought up for you. [00:39:28] Speaker A: So real quick. You know, I want to thank you very much, Dr. Leslie Grus, for your time on the Tron podcast. Like I said, I'm just a little small guy trying to make my noise in the podcast world and for you to be able to carve out time with your interesting background and story. I'm very honored for that. For, for and privilege for your time. [00:39:43] Speaker B: Thank you, Rashad. It's been a delight. Let's do it. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Very much looking forward to that. You have a wonderful day. [00:39:49] Speaker B: Okay, bye. You too. Bye.