Patti McCracken

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign welcome back everyone. This is Rashad woods with the Tron podcast. I have one of the most fascinating biographies I've seen since doing this show in a very long time. She's an author. She's been a writer that's been featured in Wall, the Wall Street Journal, the Smithsonian. She's been in Europe. She's been stateside as well too. Ladies and gentlemen, Ms. Patty McCracken. Thank you for joining us. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Thank you, Rashad. It's great to be here. [00:00:42] Speaker A: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I got to tell you, you know, we're going to get obviously into your very, very fascinating book, which just stood out to me very, very much. But you have one of the more interesting biographies, you know, that I've seen in quite some time. And I don't want to do all the talking because I'd love to hear you talk about your stuff. So Virginia Beach, Florida, D.C. chicago, Europe. And that was just me kind of bullet pointing it. Can you kind of give us the details of that? [00:01:05] Speaker B: I get tired just hearing that. Yeah. Born in Virginia beach, then moved to Florida and I was, I worked at the Chicago Tribune back in the day when there was a Chicago Tribune. Not for too long before I went to Europe. And I went to Europe to work with journalists from the former Soviet republic and that and that kind of thing. This so called emerging democracies. And it was kind of like this journalism Peace Corps. So people like me, they're mostly Americans or western journalists at that time you were just going in after the Wall came down, which sounds really quaint now and sounds like a really long time ago, which it was. But just teaching them basic journalism things and then doing other things like post war Bosnia, being on one little person on a team of people helping journal with pre press advocacy or sometimes they needed to get to safety. So you are sort of part of one in a chain of many who were putting their heads together for things like that. So you know, didn't pay much. It paid Peace Corps wages. So, you know, and it was sort of contract to contract. So there was just a lot of and still are a lot of media nonprofits that are just working to help journalists. You know, there's one called Reporters Without Borders, like doctors. So I never worked for them, but they're doing some pretty good work now in Ukraine and stuff like that. So I did that for a long time and I lived in Europe. I lived in a little village, very east Austria, right on the border with Slovakia. And because it was like a really nice little town, so the Crazy part. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Is, is that even though, you know, you talk about, you know, the, the wall came down, you know, Mr. Gorbachev tear down that wall, when you actually put that in the context that really isn't that long time, long ago, right? Like, you know, like obviously in a reference of time in life, you know, it's easy to sit back and say X, Y and Z minor years ago. But I remember hearing about that as a kid, right? This is not some, you know, black and white documentary that you know or you know, this is literally in the 80s, right? [00:03:10] Speaker B: It's, it's literally in the 80s. And I was an adult then, but I wasn't that old. And I remember when it happened and I remember it was on my sister's birthday when it was like the big November 9th and like the actual chipping away of the wall, even though it had actually started kind of months before. And I remember being on the road, being on 95, driving from Baltimore to D.C. and I had to pull my car over and I just started crying because the wall had always been up in my lifetime. And then when you, when your life is young, you can't imagine anything that happened before your time, you know, so wall will always be there, you know. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Exactly. And so, you know, and then I got to ask this question because you know, you're going into the post Soviet Union. How welcome were reporters that are so used to handling democracy, being able to report on politicians, political matters and just your everyday lifestyle. I mean like for you to do a story over here. I've never been a reporter, so I know that there are things that are involved with it, but there's a free press like over there, you're literally teaching people how to actually saying this is from my understanding, okay, or these are the ropes of doing it. Can you go into detail what that's like? [00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, as much as things change, they kind of stay the same or they revert back, but to go back to that, that time. So this would have been earlyish to mid-90s, so not that a few years, just a handful of years after the wall came down. And so it would really depend on the age of the journalist you were working with. So the young ones were just wide eyed and wanted to do whatever so called western practices which would be, you know, actually reporting the story and not hearsay. Older reporters were nervous and didn't want to put their names on stuff. And totally understandable. And now, now it comes full circle where we come back to the US and now never in my lifetime, ever Ever would I have worried about free press in America, ever. But now we are. So it was interesting. Cause I go back to those times and I'm like, no, no, no, it's all good. But you know, never be too sure of what, you know, what's going to happen. Never be so. Feel so safe and things. But it was, it really had to do with the age of the reporter and of course their previous experience because it's. There would be. There was one time when I was in. Where was I. I think I was in Ukraine, can't remember. And there was a lot of times. Interpreters are interesting. There was a journalist interpreter who was working with me. And so she's up there, I'm speaking and she's interpreting for me. And during a little bit of a break she told me that her father was a reporter and had been killed in a car accident. And she did it like car accident with air quotes. And that's just language for. And it was a car accident, but it wasn't an accident. There was lots of that stuff there. The threat of journalists that, you know, in Russia and such, absolutely huge risk for reporters, especially now. [00:06:04] Speaker A: I can't even imagine what it must have been like being an American there. On top of that, you know, the dangers on a day by day basis, you know, coming in that type of. You're braver than me because I don't know if I could have had the stomach to do that. [00:06:14] Speaker B: It actually wasn't in Russia. I was in Algeria for four months. And that was a danger for Americans to be there because they had sort of, you know, this, don't go anywhere by yourself and you know, don't walk the same way to work every day and that kind of thing because there's just a little bit of a. Yeah, but you know, you get, I don't say you get used to it, but you're aware of the dangers and there are certain. And you know, you're lucky as an American because you do have certain protections that other people don't have in other countries. You do have a State Department that can get you out and things like that. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So I just really quick, you also were. You have a night fellowship too as well too. I thought I saw that as well too. So just briefly, did you ever major in journalism in college or anything like that? So how did you that. And I was curious, like, how do you get your foot into something that goes from local in Chicago to international? So were you reporting on like international things even locally? [00:07:10] Speaker B: No, I started as an Obit writer at the St. Pete Times in Florida when I was 19. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Really? [00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was on. I wasn't even on the main desk. I was in the clear. The little satellite office. It was part time. I love that job. It was great. It was great place to work. And it's now the Tampa Bay Times. A great news. Yeah, it's a great newspaper and they always do just. They just have lovely writing in that newspaper and lovely reporting. And as a child, as a teenager, I used to read there was a guy, I don't know if he's still there. He was a reporter named Tom French. And I just remembered his byline because he was such a great writer. And I was like 15 and 16 years old. I want to write like Tom French because he's just a great. He wrote this article one time about a Bruce Springsteen concert and it was just like, I like Bruce Springsteen and I came to love Bruce Springsteen. But maybe I came to love him because of this article that was just. [00:08:11] Speaker A: Like vivid and it just reached you. [00:08:13] Speaker B: So great. Yeah, really just excellent, lovely writing. So I aspired to be like Tom French when I was in high school. [00:08:22] Speaker A: Obviously I want to get to the book that you wrote, but I did have a quick question real briefly about you being a reporter and how people report now. Everybody who has a YouTube channel is a reporter now. Right. Everybody can suddenly. Have you found that the access to technology and AI has helped or hurt the profession? [00:08:38] Speaker B: I am no friend of AI so we're just leaving now as the technology. That's a tough question. You should be a journalist. It's. I'm uncomfortable. I'm very, in a certain way, old school about journalism is that journalism shouldn't be activism. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:08:57] Speaker B: But that ship sailed a long time ago. Now it's really a matter of. It's tough. It's a tough one. And I think that there's a lot of good reporting that's going on still. There's just not a lot of outlets for that reporting that are accessible to everybody. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:18] Speaker B: That everybody will go to. So it's difficult, you know, when they tailor your journalism, like as a menu, you know, it's difficult. [00:09:27] Speaker A: I respect that. And I think. And I, you know, and like into. That's why I was so curious about that question. Because you'll find out there's a nice little happy medium between embracing technology versus, like, no, this is the way things are supposed to be done and not in an entertainment or. Or a, you know, auto generated auto feed to feed your particular impulses. Kind of a way, Right? [00:09:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Because that's not healthy journalism necessarily. So it's a matter of. It's just, I mean, journalism isn't a science. And Noah. So it's just sort of, you know, there's lots of mistakes made and there's lots of, you know, just like medicine, you have people who are no integrity and you know, but. So that's the kind of thing that goes along with journalism. But it is. There has to be some standard and some integrity. Yeah. And there has to always be your eye on the ball of what is the purpose for doing this is for the society, you know. [00:10:23] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's awesome. So I tell you one thing. This, the book that you wrote. You know, I don't want to talk on behalf too much of your book because you're the author of it, but this story was like, this was. This was so buzzy to me when I saw the Angel Makers, ladies and gentlemen. And I'm like, I could watch something like this all day, Right. I could picture the grainy, the black and white, you know, situation. If that took place. I don't want to over talk that. But the highlighting points that I read about this were so fascinating. So please talk about your book. [00:10:51] Speaker B: It's a crazy story. It's a book called the Angel Makers. Arsenic, a Midwife and Modern History's most Astonishing murdering. I'm looking down in case you're doing that. [00:11:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Please, please. [00:11:01] Speaker A: We want to fix the book on the show. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I just had to the subtitles long. But it's about. It's a true story about a midwife in Hungary not that long ago, about 100 years ago, who was dispensing arsenic to the neighbor women who she saw were having difficulties with their husbands. And so she would say, why are you bothering with him? I have a solution. Yes, it's rough. Why are you bothering with him? I have a solution. And she literally had a solution. She literally had an elixir in her. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Little apron pocket in it that I have right here. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Every man I talk to about this voice is like, they get all worried, like, should I be worried about my drink? And the women are like, yeah, sister. The audience, it's funny. It's to a T. The men get all nervous and twitchy. So yeah, she did this for. She wasn't the only one. There were other women in the village who were doing this. There were other women in Hungary, other women in Europe. But for her, it was a business. As her, her grand niece told me her granny says, yeah, for Auntie Susie it was a business and it was. And she made quite a business out of it. And when everything came to light, they. At least 162 men had been killed, but the prosecutor thinks it was, you know, in the hundreds, three hundreds, you know. Yeah. [00:12:18] Speaker A: So some of the bullet points I saw was that some of them were the, the disabled husbands from World War I, you know, so they came, you know. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Some of them, you know, you have to be careful what you read on the Internet. And that's what I, I spent 12 years working, 12 years plus on this book. Research and writing. I lived not far from the village when I was in Austria. So I had access to the village. I had, I hired a local historian to help me with this. And there is a lot of information out on the in. There's not a lot of information. There's the same repeated information on the Internet which doesn't give much to it. There were. Not necessarily they were disabled, but some were disabled. They were disabled in the way that what war does to a man. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. See, because I just. Bullet point. So that. [00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I do appreciate this opportunity to talk about it because this was a village, that this was a culture already and this wasn't just Hungary Everywhere because women are treated as second class citizens where it was standard that a wife would be abused. It was just that they used to have a little strap on the front near the front door called the obedience strap. That wasn't for the dog. Yeah. And so these were women who were used to a certain amount of abuse just as culturally. But there was also. [00:13:47] Speaker A: There's no place to go. Right. It's not like. [00:13:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:13:50] Speaker A: There's no women. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Right. You can't call the police, you can't call 91 1. They didn't do, they didn't even recognize it as abuse. They thought, you know, I mean, a good husband was one that didn't really beat his wife all that often. Right. And so. And then you put alcohol in there and there was a lot of alcoholism there. But then, you know, you also put young men and young boys, 18 year old boys going off to war and fighting on the most horrible front. And they also had no help. They also had no mental health or anything or any drugs or anything that could help them. And so you send them back into a tiny little house with a little bit more, more alcohol, find spaces and lots of. Yeah, yeah. So you've got a pretty volatile situation that then gets much more volatile. So it was, that was Sort of the situation as it was. So a lot of these women, you know, protecting their children in a way. Some of these women were protecting their children by doing this. And some were, you know, their lives were maybe a little bit more peaceful when their husband left because, you know, they weren't being abused. And then the key comes back. And then some were just downright awful and killing very decent people who, you know, so there's all kinds of reasons. And they weren't getting caught, you know, because there are no police in the village. So people were like, why are they doing this? Became, why not? You know, my cousin did it. Exactly. [00:15:17] Speaker A: I do have a question. And obviously advances in science and medicine worldwide have made things like arsenic less likely to end up in a household. Like what was it used for? How was the access to something like that back then? [00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, Auntie Susie, who was the midwife, she got it from flypaper. You know, you stick those strips of fly paper up. Yeah. Well, if anybody's listening, they don't put arsenic into fly paper anymore. So don't let me get any idea. So that her way was she would distill it from the flypaper. It was a pretty painstaking process. She took like few hours where she would just distill it and. And then it'd be just become this kind of powder. But it was in a lot of things, but it was mostly that. Or. Yeah. Catching flies on this blue stuff called flystone, which looks like a pool chalk, you know, looks like that. Yeah. So that it was around and it was easy because. Because it was accessible and because, you know, you really can't detect it, you can't smell it and you know, it masks, you know, so when they called the doctor, it's like, oh, he's got a stomachache or he died of a heart attack. And so it could mask anything, you know. And plus they had Spanish flu at the times and people coming back with war injuries like, oh, he died from, you know, and so it was real easy to just say he died of something else. [00:16:32] Speaker A: So. So obviously, and I took notes about this because it was so, you know, fascinating to me. So it looks like in 1929, various family members and friends of Auntie Susie, you know, decided they were going to poison X, Y and Z and do X, Y and Z. How did words start getting around that there could be something deeper than just random deaths? [00:16:52] Speaker B: Well, they had been suspicious for quite a while. But, you know, you never imagine your next door neighbors doing something or you never imagine your wife is going to Do. But people were sending anonymous notes to the town clerk, who was like the mayor, kind of like mayor. And he just didn't believe him. And he was of sort of the gentry class, you know, so he felt he was a step above these peasants and that, oh, these silly peasants are just being annoying, dramatic, annoying him because he wanted to go hunting and he wanted to go. He didn't want to bother with it. And so when an. Literally a new sheriff was in town, when there was a new town clerk appointed, he found a bunch of anonymous notes. And at the same time that he finding these anonymous notes, an attempted murder happened in the neighboring village, and it was connected to Susie. And so that guy didn't die, and he reported it. So it was kind of this perfect storm of things that kind of go, okay, now we're paying attention. Yeah. And there was one that had happened several years earlier that the doctor was very suspicious about. It was a friend of his. And he's like, this is not right. I just saw this guy last week, something's going on, and he's asked for an autopsy in the main town. And they were having money troubles. It was after World War I. The town, the city didn't have money to do, you know, to investigate the death. So they said no. And that kind of came back to bite them because there people were like, you knew about this, you know, five years ago, six years ago, and you could have. You could have prevented all these other deaths, you know. [00:18:22] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. So. So what was the aftermath of all of this? Was there. Okay, so obviously I saw some people were sentenced to jail, some people were sentenced to death. Did it start to fade away from public memory that this particular instance happened? [00:18:38] Speaker B: No, it was massive internationally. And this was, you know, and you think about it, this was just the time when radio was coming around and. And they had foreign reporters there and stuff. It was massive. New York Times covered it. Chicago Tribune covered it. I mean, it was huge. And the trials were enormous. They had to sell tickets to control the crowds. I mean, people were out for blood for these women. And the newspapers were not kind to. The newspapers called them all kinds of horrible. They didn't call these women. They called all peasant women were horrible, you know, and so people were out for blood. And it was incredibly reported. They had. It was awful because they had public hangings, you know, and even gross. It was awful. But at the public hangings, it was really macabre because people were invited and they had to wear tux and gowns. [00:19:27] Speaker A: Really, you know, it's It's. You see footage and videotape of what they let the public just kind of consume for entertainment. And it kind of makes your stomach churn a little bit, right? [00:19:36] Speaker B: It does, it does. It's disgusting. [00:19:41] Speaker A: Kids attending like a public execution. You're just like, oh, my God. [00:19:46] Speaker B: I know. [00:19:46] Speaker A: So you're in that area when you're a reporter. And so when you, how long did you actually become knowledgeable about. You always knew about these things when you were based in that area. And then you just. How did your research start on this? [00:19:57] Speaker B: I started. I was just like anybody. I was looking for a story to do. I was just on a Sunday afternoon. I remember it. I'm like, there was this one little thing on it at that time. This was like way long ago. And it was kind of snarky the way it was written. It was kind of tongue in cheek. But I thought, I'm just curious about it. And my neighbor was a photographer, really great photographer at the time. I mean, he's still a great photographer. He's not my neighbor anymore. But I said, you know, Harold, do you want to go on a road trip? And he's like, yeah, that sounds good. And so we went. We started with a road trip and I now had an interpreter with us. And it just kind of went from there. I just at first did an article on it, and then it just stayed with me. I found myself, you know, talking about it at parties and stuff. And. And I just thought, wow, you know, So I sold it as a proposal. Nonfiction. You sell to a publisher before the book is written and you sell it like an idea of it. And so I sold it to this, the publisher. And then when I went into the archives and started doing, it was scary because I felt like I'd gone fishing and I caught a whale. It was like, this is huge. I don't know what. I don't know what to do with all this. I've never written a book. Oh, my God. And it was great to have that information, but it was like, it was really an out of body experience. [00:21:11] Speaker A: Like, I'm really writing about this situation. [00:21:13] Speaker B: And I'm like, me, I've never written more than 1500 words at a time, and now you wanted me to write 100. I just didn't know where to. I was like, I am way out of my depth with this. I don't recommend anybody do that. [00:21:26] Speaker A: So when you're, when you're writing this, were there. Were there great. You taught, you talked earlier that there was a great granddaughter. Were there Other descendants that were openly knowledgeable about this particular situation that took place. [00:21:38] Speaker B: You know, it was interesting because when I went there originally for the article with, with Harold the photographer, and we went to the. We were told, go over to the librarian, she knows about it. And so we went over to the librarian and we're sitting at this long table. It was weird because we were all sitting. It was like she was really forceful personality. Some people have that energy where you're just like. And we were like three of us sitting at this table and she's way at the top of the table. And it felt like the force of her energy had like pushed us down. And we're sitting and the interpreter said, hold on a second. And the interpreter turns to me and she said, this librarian, she just told me that she's the grand niece of the midwife. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Wow. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Right. So she didn't lead with that, of all people. And it took her, it took her an hour and a half to get to that. And that blew me away because that's when I really realized that everybody in this little village is descended from a victim or perpetrator or both. Everybody was affected. So what they know about it, everything was swept under the rug. So she found out the grand niece was also her. Not her husband, but her ex live in boyfriend. [00:22:46] Speaker A: She's. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I was reading about it and she goes, oh. And I realized why my ex boyfriend's mother was orphaned because both of her, you know, the. The mother of her killed her dad and then went to prison. But they didn't know it. She had to read it from an outside source. This Canadian, Hungarian historian who did it. I mean, imagine that much trauma and that much shame. [00:23:09] Speaker A: And I, you know, and I say this very respectfully about the situation that kind of. Because it happened right after World War I, and then World War II happens right in between. A story like that gets really, really lost about something like that. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Right, right, exactly. Because World War II, for us, World War II started later. But for them, it started. I had Mussolini in 1925, and they had, you know, so they had all that stuff going on, right. Quicker, you know, than we did. And so they were dealing with all kinds of junk that, you know, right away. And already traumatized by one war and about to be traumatized by another one. And then the stock market crashed, you know, so they had. That affected them too, you know, you know, struggle. [00:23:50] Speaker A: And so I didn't even, you know, I didn't even hear. But I think I heard about it in passing at one point. You know, just in the context of maybe inside of something. But I didn't realize the depth of it until I started, you know, looking about what you wrote. I was like, wow, this is sandwiched between, you know, these two cataclysmic events, you know. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's why we probably didn't hear about it. And that's. And I have to say, mine is the first. The book that actually tells the story. It's the first time it's ever been told this in this depth in Hungary or anywhere in the world. So I'm. I'm glad. I'm honored to be able to tell the story because as difficult as the whole situation. Situation was, this was a community that was deeply affected by it. And these were women that were. Most of them were just struggling and would not have otherwise done this. And sometimes Auntie Susie did it for them, quote, unquote, without their. Without their. Okay. [00:24:43] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And they. They suffer tremendously under this. So. Yeah. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Just briefly, on. Still on this topic, are there any historical markers, you know, or monuments to. To kind of say that this is what happened or is the town kind of on? [00:24:59] Speaker B: The town hasn't moved on. I think the town wants to move on. But it's sort of like if you. If you think about Germany, the first thing you think about is Hitch. So this is this town. The first thing you think about is the angel makers. So I don't think they'll ever really be out from under it. But if they can. If my book can help give greater context and greater emotional truth and understanding of what happened, maybe that will help in some way people understand that this was. This kind of could have happened anywhere. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Well, it's crazy. [00:25:29] Speaker B: In a certain situation, you know, it's. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Interesting you say that because, you know, I. Obviously, I couldn't tell whatever happened everywhere in every place on earth, but I could say with pretty decent confidence this is not the only situations that something like this is occurring. Right. [00:25:43] Speaker B: And this was kind of. I mean, it's bizarre how relevant it is today. And it's bizarre how much more relevant it is. Even then when I started writing it, this is kind of their. Me too. This was their, you know, act of desperation and they had been ignored, and they're still ignored. There's still no police force in that. In that town. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Not yet. That even now, you know, 100 years later, there's no police force in that. [00:26:06] Speaker B: No. Even by law, there has always supposed to be two appointed there, but there still isn't. So, you know, they. They Just had to fend for themselves. [00:26:15] Speaker A: That's a deep story. That's. That's a really deep story that, you know, and, you know, to. For you to be there and be able to actually have that interview and interaction, see those places where everything took place. You know, I just want to say that that's amazing and I hope that the, you know, the book does tremendously well because this is. These stories are always, number one, needed to get out number two. They're just, you know, hearing about that is so interesting. Right? It's so interesting, you know, to find out, you know, different cultures and to immerse yourself that for 12 years. That's amazing. [00:26:44] Speaker B: Well, I owe it to my historian assistant who laid all the groundwork. And he. They trusted him because he was, you know, spoke like them and had the same background as. As they did. But this could happen anywhere. And I think I wrote it. Even though it's all a true story, I wrote it as if it were a novel because I didn't want it to be dry facts of just like, this happened. [00:27:08] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:27:09] Speaker B: I really. That's why it took so long to report. That's why it took 12 years to really report, because I had to kind of recreate the DNA and, and find out exactly what happened and what was doing what and. And weed was growing in their backyard and that sort of thing. But I felt it was important to really tell the stories because, like, so we can relate to it. You can, you can relate to, you know, brothers and fathers going off to war or you becoming 18 and. And going, oh, gosh, I have to sign up for the draft. And whether you are actively putting yourself in the military or being drafted, still a monumental. [00:27:45] Speaker A: I never served, and I always give props to everybody who did and continues to do so. But what was when you said that? It was amazing because I graduated from high school in 2001. Right. And, you know, so in nine, 11 happened three months after I graduated. So I had a friend, you know, I'm in college, I'm in my dorm, and then I'm messaging him, you know, like February, March time. And, you know, he had already gone to the army. And I'm in my dorm room at Michigan State, and he's like, I'm in Baghdad, right? And you're just like, it just like, I'm like, holy. Like, yo, in this short amount of time, you know, we went from having. I don't even remember what class we had together, to this guy's in Baghdad, right? And here I am, you Know, and so, like, that dynamic of what you talked about is like, you know, one minute you're a kid and then you're in not only just adulthood, but in Europe, you're a soldier in the army. [00:28:30] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. So you've got friends signing up, which is this mind blowing, but it's also the fact that there is the threat that, you know, you won't sign up, but the government will sign you up. So you, as a guy would have to go, have to have that worry. Is this going to get bigger? And am I going to have to. Am I going to have to go there? [00:28:48] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, you know, I obviously, I find your story completely fascinating. And just briefly, what are you doing stateside now? [00:28:55] Speaker B: Stateside? Well, the. Still, I'm promoting the book. I'm a ghost writer and I'm a writing coach and sort of looking at sort of other options related to the book without sort of going further into that and looking for the next big story. [00:29:10] Speaker A: Oh, that's dope. And, you know, like I said, if you uncover anything that's anywhere close to something like that, I love. I would love to read about it because, you know, stories like that deserve to be told, you know, and a lot of things get buried over the course of time. And to be honest with yourself, Wikipedia is not always the truth. Or did. Right. You did your research. [00:29:29] Speaker B: Yeah, Googling something. This is my big thing is people said Googled it. That's not research, that's Googling. You got to go to the person who was actually there or actually did the research and taught. [00:29:39] Speaker A: And I'm sure, like, that's not true. Right. [00:29:44] Speaker B: Drives me crazy. That's my little pet peeve of the day. I'll let that be known. Googling is not researching, but I get the. The, you know, you're looking into it, you're reading about it, but it's not. It's not always there. Right. On the surface. You've got to talk to the people. And there's people that you talk to when I. My line of work, where it's like, a lot of it are. A lot of them are historians and they're like, I wrote about this. Nobody's ever asked me. I really want to talk about it. Like, yes, tell me what kind of medical devices that they use. And they're so excited to talk to you. And they have all this information and they're actually pretty animated people because they live in that world. That's why they became historians and they studied that one thing. And so they're really fun to talk to. And they get. They bring it alive for you. So I met a lot of great historians of these really arcane topics, you know, that at a party, they might be boring, but for somebody like me, it's like, that's so cool that they had all this stuff, you know, that's so cool that they did this kind of thing. [00:30:39] Speaker A: License Nexus was my. Was my friend in college. Right. So, yes, that was my friend. [00:30:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:44] Speaker A: So good journalism. Awesome. So I know I've taken up more than enough of your time. Your background is absolutely exquisite. I wish it looked the same where I was at right now. It's nice and gray and 40 degrees. [00:30:54] Speaker B: And pretty, you know, it is nice. We're very lucky today. [00:30:58] Speaker A: So did you have any questions for me before we wrap this up? And again, I appreciate your time so much. [00:31:02] Speaker B: No, I just wanna. I'm excited now. I want to sort of hear more of your episodes. I like the idea of the randomness of nothing. It brings everything. [00:31:13] Speaker A: I'll be honest with you. You know, I wasn't smart enough to do you. I had to talk to people smarter than me. And that's why I did this show. Because I'm the curious guy. And the people who have the answers to the question I was seeking are people like you. [00:31:25] Speaker B: Curiosity is the best thing. I bet your teachers loved you when you were in school. [00:31:29] Speaker A: You're gonna leave it at that? That. Because anyone. My former teachers watching will probably. You're the first that probably said that. But no, you know, I talked a lot. [00:31:36] Speaker B: No, I'm sure there are ones that they were like, yeah, not the math teachers. The math teachers never want you to be curious. Like, it is what it is. Don't ask me. [00:31:44] Speaker A: The answer is the answer. [00:31:47] Speaker B: So. All right. [00:31:49] Speaker A: I appreciate your time so much. It's been awesome. [00:31:51] Speaker B: Likewise. You too. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Sa.