Phyllis Leavitt

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, everyone, to the Tron podcast, the Randomness of Nothing. This is your host, Rashad Woods. Today I have a very special guest, Phyllis Levitt, psychotherapist, works with trauma author as well, too, to help people navigate those difficult periods in life, and has been doing this for quite some time from the beautiful state of New Mexico. Thank you so much. [00:00:17] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a delight to have this conversation. It's one of my passions to talk about how we can heal our mental health. [00:00:25] Speaker A: Right. And let me just start off by saying, you know, is that it finally stopped becoming a dirty word just in the last few years. Right. So for a long time, you know, and. And this isn't a knock on anything. Like, it was basically, find a way to deal with it and whatever happens to you, like, physical meant more than mental, even though the mental could be much more debilitating than the physical. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. I think we had this mindset, if you were a strong person, you'd get over it and leave the past behind you. [00:00:52] Speaker A: Correct. [00:00:52] Speaker B: And we now know that that's just not the way trauma works in our psyche and our behavior and our nervous system and our emotions. It just. It has a lasting and sometimes very, very profoundly damaging effect on people. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Question. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:09] Speaker A: So you have. You went to school for this, so you were almost ahead of the curve when it came to actually getting into this field. So tell me a little bit about your history and how you got into that in college. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I. When I grew up. I'm quite a bit older than you when I grew up. You know, therapy was. First of all, I didn't even know about therapy when I grew up. And by the time I heard about it, it definitely was something, you know, to, like, be ashamed of. Like, if you needed to go talk to somebody, it was a sign of weakness or failure of some kind. And so I never really considered that I had childhood trauma of my own that was pretty much buried. And it was very much affecting my life in terms of. Mostly I would just say, like, high levels of anxiety, and I'm probably naturally an introvert, but I think it made me even more kind of hidden and shut down and not wanting to be seen in any way. And I just combated that, you know, without words, really, because I didn't even know what I was dealing with. I just really grew up thinking I was a flawed human being. That's really what I thought. And when I first went to therapy, I was in my 50s. I had three little kids. I was in a pretty bad marriage. And it was finally sort of becoming a little bit more acceptable, at least among some of the people that I knew. And I was kind of at a really low point in my life, and I decided to go. And it was mind blowingly altering because I realized for the first time that the way we grow up and the conditioning we receive and the things that happen to us with other people, especially if they're negative or hurtful, really do affect the way a person feels about themselves and the coping mechanisms they develop and the kind of people they're attracted to. We tend to be attracted to what we know, Right. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Without question. [00:02:54] Speaker B: So if you know unavailability, if you know emotional harm, if you know physical or sexual abuse, you tend to get attracted to the same thing, not knowing what you're doing. Because the impulse within us unconsciously is, this time I'm going to get the love I didn't get. And so we seek out the same kind of people that hurt us in the first place. And I was one of those people. And so I found myself in an untenable marriage with three little children. And I went to therapy and. And it was so life altering for me in terms of my beginning to understand myself and remember what happened to me when I was little that I was able to leave that marriage. And I became a therapist out of that. I wanted to give back part of what I was receiving. Beautiful. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Beautiful. And so, you know, it's. It's. It's kind of always been kind of, like I said, the dirty word that people didn't talk about, you know, and then it got even. It would get even deeper where we don't tell what's going on outside of this household to other people. Right. So I know that's a big part of American culture, you know, and so I would imagine I've talked to other people who do mental health and things like that. It started traditionally with women who were either in bad relationships, bad marriages, dealing with stress of kids in career, and men, for lack of a better term, either didn't go or they parked in the back and really had to basically be dragged to something. Even though there was a lot of men who had a lot of trauma and were suffering kind of silently, Right? [00:04:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think even with all of the prejudice against going for help on a psychological level, I think societally and probably globally, it's somewhat more acceptable for a woman to be emotional than a man. I think that was a lot of it, that men were not supposed to show pain. They were Supposed to man up, of course. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Without question. Without question, of course. You know what I mean? And so, you know, I think that to your point, you know, and you also work with children as well, too, so obviously, you know, even the level of bullying. Right. So for a long time, it was just like you were supposed to go through that, like, it almost was like a rite of passage scene in life. Right. Like, listen, it's. You got to. Now, it actually came to the head, unfortunately, with school shootings and kids who really, you know, went off the deep end, so to speak. [00:05:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:04] Speaker A: Respectfully. It got to the point where people almost were like, yo, this isn't like the joke in the movie anymore, like, Back to the Future with Biff. You know what I mean? [00:05:11] Speaker B: Right, right, right, right. [00:05:12] Speaker A: It became to be taken more seriously about really what was happening to kids. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Yes. And I think wonderful offerings that the world of psychology has to the world today, which I think is still not totally understood by. By many, many people. And that is that inside that bully is a hurting kid. Inside that bully on the playground is a child who's really calling for help by their aggressive behavior. And it's the same with adults. The most destructive, outrageously violent or hurtful or, you know, exploitive or whatever adults in our society are also calling for help for their own unhealed wounds. Most of them don't know that. And as a society, we don't know that. So we're still very invested in punishment and labeling people and vilifying people and targeting people rather than helping them. And I think that's one of the big things that, you know, I talk about in my book America in Therapy. It's one of many that inside the perpetrator is an unhealed victim. And if we really want to stop the cycles of abuse and neglect in the home, in the community, and the violence that we still believe in and justify and perpetuate on larger societal and national levels. If we really want to put an end to that kind of violence, we need a commitment to help people heal. And that starts on the family level, on the children level, and really helping people who are symptomatic get to the root of their symptom. Just like if a person's in physical pain, they go to the doctor to get not just a pill to cover up the pain, but to get to the root of what's causing it. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:52] Speaker B: It's exactly the same with our psyches. [00:06:54] Speaker A: So there's different levels of trauma that people are dealing with. Right. Some people can function throughout the day and they just need somebody to talk to, do one or two sessions for whatever amount of time. But I've also noticed that based on it, there's a number of factors why people resist either time availability, insurance coverages that may or may not cover people. And then if they have to go through a federal program, there's a lot of layers that may need to get that approved based on your zip code. Right, right. So it's very restrictive in some senses. You know, how did you, how did you navigate that space when it came to actually getting people into the door and talking to you? [00:07:31] Speaker B: Well, for the most part, you know, I worked in Santa Fe, New Mexico, for the most part. That's where I lived at the time. And I had people that were self pay. I did some sliding scale for people who really couldn't afford it. And I had a lot of insurance people, people covered by insurance. But I think it's a real issue. I think that our mental health, the way I see it, is our mental health is the biggest unaddressed issue in our country and probably around the world. And so for me, it should be very much funded by our tax dollars to help people heal and get well so that they can be their best selves and their most contributing members to their families and their communities and to our society. When people have a chance to heal from what's hurt them in their home or in their community, from poverty or discrimination or community violence or whatever they've gone through outside the home as well as inside the home. And there's a lot of abuse and neglect. And in our homes today, when people have a chance to heal, they become more loving, they become more peaceful, they become more compassionate, they become more cooperative. And by and large, they want to give back in some way, whether it's minuscule, you know, in their own home, I don't really mean it that small or with some big, you know, some big project that has national implications when we're allowed to not be judged and to find healing for the worst of what's happened to us and the worst of what we've done to. Because most of us have hurt people too. You know, of course, we're not just victims. We've also acted out some of our own pain in small and large ways. And when we have a chance to heal from all of that, we become more loving, you know, peaceful individuals. And so for me, if we really want to heal our society, we have to start with how we treat each other. [00:09:21] Speaker A: How did you navigate the space of. Because when you got into the field there wasn't social media. How do you navigate the social media field now? Because, because it's not just kids, it's adults. There's lots of, and there's lots of people who can handle social media. So this isn't our la carte blanc, so to speak. But it does have an effect. Either you're obsessed with the reply or your body shamed for whatever reason. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:42] Speaker A: I mean, I've been guilty of it. Like, I'll be like, man, like that guy is his body. You're like, man, I try to work out, I can't get anywhere close to something like that, you know, and so, you know, that's on a more comedic skill. Like, yeah, you know, that ship is sailed. But in all seriousness, when it comes to like bullying or peer pressure or simply like an argument at school can escalate online really quickly for a kid. And now you have principals and teachers that are like, I was prepared for what happened inside a class, but now I got this noise that's taking place that's much deeper than what I was dealing with before. [00:10:13] Speaker B: Right. Well, I definitely think that social media can be used for the good and it can definitely be used to incite people to more violence and more hatred and more, you know, more prejudice and more discrimination. And I think, you know, I don't have an answer because obviously social media has, in some ways it just has a life of its own. People get, leave what they read without necessarily questioning whether it's true or not. And I think, I think one of the answers, and it's not, it's a, it's not a long, it's not a short term answer, is we have to educate ourselves. I think, and that's the reason why I wrote my book America and Therapy. I think a lot of, of people actually don't know what the true value of understanding our own psychological functioning could give us so that we're, we're not just so easily manipulated by social media or we turn off things that are really harmful to look at or just hateful and fill us with either fear or more hate or more desire to lash out at people without question. I think we have to educate ourselves. And so for me, my answer personally is to have my voice, to try to have a voice on social media that's loving, that's insightful, that's wise, that's contributing. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, right. And what helps to honestly like it when you take a break from it, it's actually like really good. Right. You know what I mean? Because like it really and the thing is about it is whatever walk of life somebody has, you know, I've always of the belief, particularly why I created this podcast was because, because I want to block out noise like people. It's emotionally charged. People can be on edge. And the thing that inspired me to do this was to talk to people like yourself. Because I said, I don't want that space in my life. Right. There's many things realistically, because like, you can, it'll, you'll start grinding your teeth, your health will get impacted, and then it becomes, how can I get an immediate. Get back to what I just saw instead of like, you know. And so I was very like, I thought what your book and what your topic was very, very prevalent because now everything is an instant reaction without any sense of the long term impacts that take place. And I want. I know you wrote more than one book, so please tell me about your books. [00:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the other two books that I wrote previous to America and therapy are called A Light in the Darkness and Into the Fire. And those books, those two books really chronicle my own healing journey from childhood trauma and vivid, very profound connection I made to, I would call it my essential self, my spiritual self. I was always, I always wanted to be a writer. Even when I was very young, I wanted to be a writer. I loved school, I loved writing papers, I loved thinking, I loved learning new ideas. And when I was, before I became a therapist, before I had children, I was very much on a spiritual path. And that was really a deep longing to connect on an inside level to my most essential self, which I knew was there buried underneath all the other stuff that I was trying to deal with. And I always had a sense of that. And I didn't know how to get there. And so I, you know, I followed certain spiritual paths for a while. And that actually what took me to therapy was I realized at a certain point that as wonderful as spiritual practice was, it didn't heal the trauma that I had. And so, so in my life now, I'm really committed to both, you know, a spiritual orientation and a very psychologically grounded way of looking at our healing. And what I've seen, I saw this in myself and I've seen this in, in a certain number of clients who have really stuck with the process is that by really healing some of the psychological, it opened up the space for me to have healthier relationship to my soul, my spirit, whatever you want to call it. And I've definitely seen that with other people. [00:14:08] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So those two worlds are really combined for me, even though they seem separate in a certain way. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Understood. So a couple quick questions. Number one is that every time there seems to be a public tragedy of any regard, whether it's a school shooting, whether it's a mass shooting, and, and that's the, the politics that people can discuss. Right? Because whatever people, but more importantly people talk about in your field, we need to invest in mental health. That's the. And I don't know if that's a knee jerk reaction, but then 22 weeks later the issue goes to wayside, it never gets funded, and then everybody goes throughout the rest of their lives. Do you have, do you advocate on the state level and what exactly how does that actually get past the point of. Because it can be a very bland statement, but actually get to the root cause of why people lash out. [00:14:53] Speaker B: Well, I really try to address that in my book. So I look at the individual, you know, what happens in our homes, if it's abusive and neglectful, and how that then ripples out into many people's functioning in society and how especially for. So one of the things I talk about among many is one way of looking at some of the symptomology of people who have been hurt and who haven't had a chance to heal, whether it's emotional violence or physical violence or sexual violence in their homes or overtime discrimination and, you know, targeting in their communities. That people tend to fall into two categories if they haven't gotten help. And this doesn't apply to everybody, but these are sort of the broad strokes. And one category is called learned helplessness. We just give up. We stop fighting back. We feel like it's safer to not fight back because maybe then I won't get abused worse or I won't get targeted or I won't. Nobody will notice me. So many people become very helpless and passive even when they're adults. And these are some of the people who, for instance, watch their children being beaten by somebody and they don't do anything. They're not bad parents. They've frozen inside from their own trauma or their own fear. And then the other category is those who identify with the aggressor and become like the aggressor and they become abusers instead, some way or exploitive or hateful in some way and target other people. And those two categories when they just. And I think they're escalating in our country, that there's more and more people who are passive and more and more people who have identified with the aggressor. And so you have to remind me what your original question was. [00:16:35] Speaker A: That was that it was, it was just like, no, it was really like, okay, you know, somebody, you know, the school shooting happens and unfortunately we've had some in Michigan. And then next thing you know, people, you know, there's, oh, we need to invest in mental health. And then a month later, people, it goes by the wayside. I mean, is this something that unfortunately doesn't get the attention and the actual funding at the local level that it deserves? Because it's a lot of layers that it has to go through to reach like New Mexico or to open a new center or to have qualified people. You know, the profession may not pay. A lot of times people don't become social workers because that field doesn't pay. Right, right. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Well, I think in answer to your question, I think what's really missing and why we're not addressing that, like every time there's a school shooting, I think, why are we not looking seriously, as a nation, as a world into what was the background of that person who went into the school and killed children? They didn't even know what was the background. That person do not have a happy, loving, safe life. Because people who have happy, loving, safe life lives don't do that. They just, they don't want to do that. [00:17:40] Speaker A: No, not even close. Right. There's, I mean, that's not even on your radar of committing something like that. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Not at all. And it would be horrifying to even think about it. So when I say this, and I talked about this a million times and I said this in my book, if a car engine blows, we immediately want to know what happened to that engine and we build a different one that doesn't blow up when a person blows. We just want to hate them and put them in jail. And that mindset of good and evil really is crying to be undone. And we have to look into that background. So if that child had drug addicted parents or was sexually violated in their home or, you know, bullied endlessly in school and nobody helped them, or they were always targeted for their gender or their color of their skin or their religion, then we have to address that on a family level. [00:18:32] Speaker A: You have a very ticking time bomb going on right there. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Right. And so we're going to keep having people that explode if we don't actually look at the roots of violence and the roots of hatred and the roots of abuse without blaming people, but with the desire to heal. [00:18:49] Speaker A: That doesn't mean you, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so Sorry, I thought you were done. Please continue that sentence. [00:18:54] Speaker B: I want to say one more sentence. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:55] Speaker B: And that is we don't hold people accountable, but there's a difference between someone accountable and wanting them to heal and help them with their own wounding and, or wanting them to be accountable just through retribution and hatred and blame and excess punishment. [00:19:13] Speaker A: And do you see a difference in your career when it comes to people's income levels, when it comes to violence and things that may be happening? And I don't mean that on any, like, I don't know. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Do you see it like, is it more likelihood if you're, if you have, you know, that's, that's really what it boils down to. Do you find financial situation perpetuate certain, certain violence levels? [00:19:33] Speaker B: Well, I, you know, I didn't work like in an inner city where we know there's a lot of violence because there's so much deprivation, there's so much targeting by police, there's so much poverty, there's so much going on. That's not my experience. You know, I worked in Santa Fe with a mostly middle class clientele. But I will tell you this, that there's a lot more physical and sexual violence and emotional abuse in homes where there's financial stability or financial means than many of us would like to imagine. I think people would like to imagine that it's over there in the inner city or in the poverty places that all these horrible things happen, but it's just really not true. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Behind closed doors there's a massive amount of sexual abuse, physical violence, emotional neglect, addiction, intergenerational trauma. [00:20:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:27] Speaker B: And certainly if you have food, you're better off than if you don't. [00:20:31] Speaker A: Without question. Without question. Because I mean, that's, I mean, you know, you're talking about survival on a day by day basis. [00:20:36] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:37] Speaker A: And I, you know, I know that like sometimes the potential, if you're, if you're a, you know, single mother, and again, I'm not taking shots at anybody, that there's a less likelihood, there's a more likelihood that you could encounter a traumatic experience, you know, on your day to day trials. But again, to your point, that married mother living in the suburbs may be suffering at the hands of an abuser as well too, so. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I've had very wealthy people in my clientele who suffered just as much abuse and neglect as the person who was, you know, living on government food stamps or whatever. [00:21:09] Speaker A: Right, right. So, you know, it's just one of those questions I asked just so they Know, you know, how resources do get deployed, how people can receive assistance and things of that nature. So how do you actually get to the other side when people are saying, okay, this is the root cause? Do you believe in people needing to take medicine or is it just therapy or is it a combination of that? Because pills can be a mixed bag. [00:21:28] Speaker B: You know, for myself in the practice that I had, and I didn't work with diagnoses like schizophrenia or that kind of thing that really need medication, My experience has been that a lot of our wounding can be treated without medication. But if a person is depressed to the point where it's affecting their functioning, or they're having anxiety attacks to the point where it's really, they can't manage it and it's affecting their functioning, then I see no reason why helping them with medication isn't a viable thing to do. I think relying on medication without doing the emotional work is probably not the answer for most people. [00:22:08] Speaker A: So a combination that, that makes a lot of sense, right? Because then it's like, well, you're still not actually getting the actual one on one and addressing things. And I know people can have mixed up feelings about pills, but some pills under the right, you know, instruction and very know what I'd like to say, controlled environment and followed diligently can assist people. [00:22:28] Speaker B: So that's right. [00:22:29] Speaker A: So what I thought was fascinating was the fact that you wrote three books. So how does the book writing process go? [00:22:35] Speaker B: You know, I, like I said, I somehow got born wanting to be a writer. I love writing. Yeah, it's very labor intensive for me. I'm not somebody who just, you know, writes the book in a week. I really, I think hard. I sort of usually get inspiration from writing. So I might not even know what I'm going to write until I start writing or I have an idea and then it expands while I'm writing, writing. So the writing process for me was in some ways, you know, just something that, that I just really, my heart and soul want to do. And it's part of my own growth and development to put my ideas down on paper. Part of it was from all the healing work that I've done. I've wanted to share, you know, the best of what I've learned and experienced with other people. But it's a lot, it's a lot of work. What really helped me with this last book that I wrote, especially American Therapy, was to have a really good editor. Really, really good editor. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Nice. Nice. It's awesome. And so, you know what I find fascinating about mental health. Right. And this is just me talking from the outside looking in is that I can say, well, I watched violent movies growing up, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't. I could separate what I saw on a screen or playing a video game and not apply it to real life. Right. And so it's, it's very difficult from the outside looking in to say, well, is that really why that person lashed out? But you have done enough expertise to know that it's deeper than what they saw at the movie theater, what they saw in a, in a video game, etc. Because now all that information is readily accessible in our homes than ever before. [00:24:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:15] Speaker A: So getting to the root cause of it and having it in your field over the years that you have shows that it's, it's deeper than just what somebody got entertained with. [00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I do think that. I mean, I don't have any research in front of me about it, but my, my sense is that if you have unresolved trauma and violence in your own history, your reaction to seeing that on the screen is somewhat different than for someone who doesn't. And I also think that this is my personal opinion, and I'll just say it is my own personal opinion. I don't think think we should be making movies that have sadistic violence in them. I think it's a horrible thing for people to take into their nervous system as entertainment. That's, that's my, my feeling. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Well, you know what the funny part about it is, is that I was talking with someone and I said, you know, it's weird how, like, almost like I would watch and I, I, I, you know, a violent movie, but I would never let my kids in. A million, like, I'm like, I. Seriously, pause it. And I'm like, you got to leave the room. Right? And it's like, it's strange to me because, like, even when I was younger, I was like, I would watch Terminator, I'd watch like a Rambo or, you know, anything like that. And I mean, as soon as that comes on, I'm like, you know, absolutely not. Other room. Can't even have that around you. So. And I'm like, man, when I was your age, you know, I would sit down and, you know, watch that racially, you start having a better understanding of, like, what are you really seeing in front of you right now at the age that you're seeing that. So I found it fascinating amongst myself. [00:25:40] Speaker B: I think that's a really good point. I mean, I think especially for children, who aren't monitored and who. This is their diet that they're taking in is this horrible example of cruelty and violence and blood and gore and you know, and the sort of like the. Whatever the high is off of, like, being the strong guy. [00:25:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:59] Speaker B: You know, I think that's a terrible diet for children to be taking in. I don't think it's great for anybody myself, but. [00:26:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:06] Speaker B: You know, I'm one of those people who, you know, I can watch an action movie that's completely unreal, but if the characters are, like, perversely evil and mal intended, you know, what I call sadistic, I can't watch that. [00:26:20] Speaker A: I can't watch it. [00:26:21] Speaker B: It violates my nervous system. And I think it's terrible for us to be taking that stuff in. [00:26:27] Speaker A: Honestly, I totally understand that. And you would get very good along with my mother because she's the same way. She's just like, I'm not. I don't want no parts of that. Put me on a good comedy. You know what I mean? So where can people find you, if I could ask? [00:26:39] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much. I'm on all the social media like Facebook and LinkedIn, and I have a substack page and YouTube. I have lots of videos on YouTube. And the best place to find me, though, is my website, which is my name, Phyllis Levitt. Www.phyllis levitt.com. you can sign in and get my newsletter. There's some free offerings that I have on my website that are about conflict resolution. You know, the things that I've learned about conflict resolution that I think really help. I have a whole chapter in my book on conflict resolution. And I have, you know, my book is available from all the major booksellers, America and therapy and. And really, check it out. I would just say check it out because it has both the diagnosis and what I've learned could really help us heal. And that's the point. The diagnosis is not blame and shame. The diagnosis processes just like if you go to the doctor, it's not shameful. If your appendix is bursting, you want help. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Right? [00:27:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Right. You know, and it's funny. You'll stop everything. You'll, you know, in the world for the. For the physical, but you delay the mental. Right. [00:27:42] Speaker B: You know, totally. [00:27:43] Speaker A: You really will. Because then it's taught, I still have to be the wife. I still have to be the mother. I still have to be the parent. I still have to, you know, go to work. And that. What, I mean, you could come, you could shoot the car 100 miles an hour just because you're angry. Right. And you know, unfortunately, we've seen instances of that. So it's. [00:28:00] Speaker B: And I think one of the things that keeps people from going to therapy is they're really afraid of diving into the pain. They're really afraid that if they dive in, they'll never come out. And I can just say this to your listening audience. I've never seen that happen. The way out is through. And to do that with a safe, non judgmental person by your side is one of the greatest great access is to healing, which is to go through that pain and come out the other side and know that it doesn't define you and it doesn't have to keep defining you for the rest of your life. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Well, I can tell you that it's been an absolute pleasure to have a chance to have you on the show. The work you do is very impeccable because, you know, those are the things that aren't seen, unfortunately, until somebody has a bad episode, because we'll be the first to open the door for somebody with a crutch, but we don't ever really know what's going on between the six inches between their ears. Right? [00:28:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Thank you so much for having me. [00:28:57] Speaker A: It's been a joy and pleasure. Keep up the great work and thank you for being on the Tron podcast. [00:29:01] Speaker B: Thank you. You too.