Jen Pasquale

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome back everyone to the Tron Podcast. This is your host, Rashad Woods. Today I have a very special guest, military spouse, business owner, career coach, Jennifer Pasquale. Thank you so much for joining the Tron podcast. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. [00:00:32] Speaker A: It is a pleasure. And you know, your background. I always love people who radiate positive energy, not just online. Right. But like the minute you see them, like it's like the sun, you just gravitate towards their personality. Right. You make me smile more. So please, let's dive right into your background. I'm so honored to have you. [00:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah, no, happy to share a little bit. So, so my background is a very windy road, as you mentioned, military spouse, which leads to often a very windy road, but primarily in training and development. So I spent about 20, 20 some years, I guess in training and development, corporate training, instructional design. It was a really great mobile career while we were moving around the world that I was able to hang onto. And then kind of a two time business owner first business was around really helping support military spouses with identity development and kind of what's next for them after their career service member, you know, enter civilian life and they do as well. And then more recently as part of that, that effort, I fell in love with strengths development and really just wanted to, to blend that with that early history in corporate training. And so now that's the space I'm in. Offering that to teams and individuals, helping them kind of lean into and understand better what they are, who they are at their best, and be able to explain that and articulate that to other people that they might work with, live with or just be in community with. [00:01:49] Speaker A: So as somebody who has not served in the military or had, you know, the chance to be a globetrotter such as yourself, how do you, what do you tell people who haven't had that experience, what that life is like? [00:01:59] Speaker B: Well, you know, it's interesting because everyone's experience is so different, right? There's, there are similarities, you know, moving around. So in our 20, 20 years, we moved 10 times. And so there's been just a lot of, a lot of starting over, a lot of kind of pivoting and adjusting and reinventing that happens. You know, the great thing about reinventing is you get to do that. Thing about it is you have to do it sort of in, in our, in our life, if you will. So there's, you know, there's good, there's, there's hard, you know, there's a little bit of everything. And I think that's kind of true for everybody's journey. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Yeah. What's crazy is when I move, you know, when we moved, we moved literally like four miles away. And I thought it was the, like, it's like life altering experiences. Right. So, like, you know, so, so like, you know, kudos to you for how you've handled that and the transitions and obviously, you know, when it comes to pride and grit, which support military spouses as well too. Can you give some details on that? Because I found that very fascinating. I love the fact that, you know, you dove right into that. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was kind of a, you know, I've heard, I've heard it said before. Sometimes you build the thing you need before you realize that's why you built it. And I think, you know, I think for me, pride and grit was, was very much that. It came at a time we were living in Germany. I had finished my last contract. I hadn't picked up a new one intentionally to just kind of enjoy being in Europe. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:10] Speaker B: And, and, you know, and so that was fun. And then I, you know, then I really felt like I still needed to, to kind of do something with my talents and with, you know, my interests. And so what I noticed was this need and this gap in the military space of really talking about the military spouse experience, particularly the experience of those married to career service members. [00:03:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:03:30] Speaker B: So folks like myself who had a career and then kind of had to pause that at varying points based on necessity, based on, you know, on our moves, based on being the solo parent, you know, lots of deployments. You know, I was sort of raised in the military in the season of, you know, back to. Back to back deployments. And that what that asked of those that were also professionals and had jobs and careers they wanted to keep, it really asked a lot of them. And so those were my peers. And so it was really figuring out what do they need. And they need a place to tell their story. They need a place to be seen, they need a place to be understood, and they need to be developed because they haven't had opportunities to really develop themselves. And there was a lot of fear about what happens after service. This is all we know. This is what we've done for two decades. I don't even know how to step out and just be a person, you know, not a military spouse. And so it was kind of helping start some of those conversations and just be a place for those conversations to start happening. What does transition look like and how do we better support spouses through that? As much as we're Supporting service members because the whole family is really who transitions. [00:04:37] Speaker A: That's interesting, too, because that person still has their own aspirations and dreams that they have to put on pause or I hate. I can only imagine there has to be burnout if there's children, multiple children, household things that are, you know, that's something I, you know, can't relate to. But I can just picture in my mind, you know, all those things that have to come in fruition and at the end of the day, still, you know, have to be concerned for your spouse who's deployed overseas as well, too. So very, very good credit to you. [00:05:00] Speaker B: It was, you know, it was a lot of fun. And I, you know, I say it was the thing I needed because I think I had some of my own kind of healing of all of that to do. And I think it gave me a place to do and a place to feel like I was making a difference, of course. And it led me to strengths work, which is what we started integrating into a lot of our programming. And so, you know, in some ways, it's. It. It led me to the thing I really love doing now. And so it feels like the perfect thing at the perfect time, for sure. And now, just like a lot of spouses, I'm ready to kind of move into a different season and help in a different way. [00:05:29] Speaker A: That's fantastic. When it comes to your career coaching, and obviously you have the credentials. Let's talk about your educational background that you. That brought you into the field. I'm a big, I'm a big fan of people who literally like, hey, this is what I'm going to. I got the, you know, the gravitas to really dive into it. And so you kind of, like, your background all kind of led up to you doing the company with, Leading with curiosity. So let's. Please, let's talk about that. [00:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, my. My sort of technical background educationally was psychology, but I. I took a different slant on it. I really was focused more on business psychology, organizational development. A lot of the coursework. I was at a liberal arts school, so I got to kind of design my own major. So I was technically a psych major, but I infused a lot of business courses and a lot of that kind of human interaction, you know, kinds of information instead of sort of the traditional clinical side of psychology. And so I always had had this interest in working with organizations and working with teams. And so, you know, the first part of my career made a lot of sense. And so now I think I lean on a lot of that because I just have this natural interest in understanding what's going on within a team. What are the dynamics that are happening? How do we improve those dynamics? You know, who needs to be developed and how? You know, I think that psychology side of me kind of has this natural curiosity about all of those things. And so it makes it just a great fit. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Well, what I always find fascinating is generational differences, right? Like I'm, I'm 42, so I always had the luxury of being able to kind of like, I remember Blockbuster, right? But I also was like in college when like Nastar came in and everything. So I'm in the middle between. Do you find generational differences when building teams? Because now you have people who only communicate by text message. They only know technology and maybe not actually, you can't text message me. We have to team build and bridge differences and gaps. So do you find the generational difference? [00:07:15] Speaker B: Oh, there certainly are generational differences. I think what's been really interesting to watch is where, where organizations have really embraced that and leaned into it. And so, like, as an example, one of the ways that can look is organizations that are putting intentional effort around what they call reverse mentorship. So it is taking the younger generation and helping, you know, the older generation learn whatever it is. It could be technology, it could be just ways of thinking, right? And so I think that, you know, companies that are doing it well are really seeing it as an asset to have so many different types of approaches to the problem and so finding ways to bring all of those approaches to the table and make room for all of those approaches. I think that's where organizations are seeing a lot less friction between the generations, right? Because it's all like, we're not hiding from it. It's all out on the table. And we're actually saying, actually this is what makes us a great organization that can be innovative and can be cutting edge because we're actually leaning into the experience of the older folks and kind of that innovative creative mind of the younger folks, right? [00:08:17] Speaker A: And you also have people like, this is a generation where a lot of people are retiring right now. So now you have, you know, people who either A, chomping at the bit for their opportunity, B, and but they need the communication and the team building skills because they may be technically savvy, right? So they may, hey, I got experience in all these list of programs, but they never actually applied it when it came to people, right? They always say, like, software developers are the best people in the background, but when they actually start Talking to people. You're like, where'd you. Have you ever sat down and had a drink or like, just conversed with somebody, have a conversation with somebody? So. No, go ahead, please. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Oh, no, I was just, I was thinking, you know what? One of the things I've. I've heard a lot about and seen as well is kind of what you're talking about, which is not necessarily gener, but it's really universal, which is when we go from being an individual contributor to being in some kind of manager or leader or supervisory role, there's always going to be a gap. And I think there's this idea that with enough time, that gap would just evaporate and I can move from individual contributor and just naturally fall into being a great leader or a great manager. And what organizations are learning, and the data absolutely shows this, is that folks are struggling, they're overwhelmed, they're overworked, they don't have. Necessarily have those skills. Because those skills aren't innate. [00:09:31] Speaker A: No. [00:09:31] Speaker B: They have to be taught and mentored. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:34] Speaker B: And that's, I think the challenge with the older generation is I think there is some fatigue around that mentorship and around kind of being the teacher of all of those things. And so I think organizations are finding they have to step in the gap and help really do that upskilling of those individual contributors in order for the team to function. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Well, it's funny you mentioned that too, because then it becomes a matter of retention, training, teaching and embracing new technologies. Right? Because at some point, you know, it can't just be. You can make the, you know, the best, you know, paper, you know, stapler. But if, you know, it has to be more than just the stapler, because there are people in teams that have to collaborate. How receptive were companies or what data were they giving you that said, hey, I may be financially very good, but my employee retention, my surveys, et cetera, are very poor. When it came to this metric in. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Particular, I mean, I think, like, I don't have numbers off the top of my head, but I think that the threads that I see is resistance to collaboration, resistance to, I think, kind of curiosity, right? It is, it is organizations where individuals have some assumptions and they hold to those assumptions. And so part of, I think where the value of these kinds of interventions and doing some of this development is really in cultivating an interest in that curiosity, being able to test those assumptions. You know, my. The way I see you, how can I learn about you in a. In a way that helps me see all of you not Just the version of you that I have made assumptions about. Right. So I think that's where organizations find more connection within their people and that connectiveness and that kind of community building, particularly I think to your earlier point around generational differences, that's where younger generations want. They want an environment that is fulfilling in a lot of different ways. Not just fulfilling in a paycheck, not just fulfilling in an award, but they want, you know, the people on the team to know them and care about them. And so that requires time and intention to build some of that connectivity between the team. And so that's, I think, where organizations find, if they have retention issues, there's often this kind of dotted line to we're not really connecting well, we're not really collaborating well. People don't really feel seen and heard and those are the places where we can start to do some, some work to make a difference. [00:11:50] Speaker A: And I will say that because, you know, the pension era is gone. So when you look at the younger generation, they're like, hey, I'm not going to stick around for 30 years because there's no, there's no watching a party waiting for me at the end of the yellow brick road. Absolutely right. So they're looking at it like if there's not some sort of vibe or there's not some sort of like continuous improvement training, collaboration, for lack of a better term, they're like, it is what it is, you know, from their perspective. So do you find, and I know you work with teams, individuals and companies. Do you find that you, hey, even maybe college or MBA graduates are like, hey, I need to work on this skill in order to be best successful in my career. Career, because there's a big gap. That piece of paper is really cool, but man, I never really learned how to be a team player. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Oh yeah, no, great question. I think, I mean, I think that's true. I think that has always been true. Right. That's again not a skill that we necessarily have. The only difference is I think that the, the sort of, the younger generation grew up in a more collaborative educational system. Right. So project based things as they were going through high school and college, there was I think, a lot more of that. How do we work together to achieve a thing versus I think, you know, 30 years ago, I'm not so sure that was as much a part of how curriculums were designed. So I think there is this natural aptitude that some of those folks have that they may actually come in a step ahead, if you will, of their 30 or 40 year old counterpart at the same age. So, you know, but, but I think regardless there is, there is nothing like kind of the real world experience of doing it. And it's this piece that every single team is so different. There's nuances to every situation. So even if this particular team that you start off with and your first job works really well, functions well and is very connected, the next place you go may kind of throw you for a loop because it may have elements of it that you don't recognize because you haven't had to experience that before. And I think that's where folks either individually or if they're in a position of kind of recommendation can help encourage that kind of development for everyone's benefit. [00:13:54] Speaker A: So there's a business they would require, they looked out for outside services for the, for the sources that you provide. What's your team size and what's your, what's your, I don't want to say protocol, but what's the outline of how the steps you would go through to bring them on board and implement the necessary game plan, so to speak? [00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean there's, there are, there's a handful of factors that go into it. Certainly, you know, the investment of time, the investment of resources are big pieces of it. I think in a perfect world, like my favorite situations are the ones where we actually start with some engagement work to really understand and define what is the challenge of this team. Is it that they're not resourced appropriately? Is it that they don't feel heard? Is it that they don't have anybody rooting for them and helping develop them? Like what is really at the core of what is driving potential disengagement? And what we know is disengagement and retention are absolutely connected. Right. The higher for sure, the higher disengagement, the lower your retention is going to be for all the reasons you already mentioned. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:52] Speaker B: So I love starting with that because it helps me ensure that we can design programming that is really meeting the true need and then, you know, we kind of go from there. So you figure out what the need is and then, and then fill it. That's kind of my superpower is really understanding the goal and then being able to find just the right thing to fit that objective. I think short of that, what I, what I will often start with, with organizations that maybe don't want to do that kind of full scale approach is more of the strengths piece. If they haven't done strengths work, they don't have that awareness. I find it a really Helpful foundation setting of the language that everyone on the team can use to better explain their value and better explain what it is they need from their colleagues in order to bring that part of themselves forward. [00:15:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:40] Speaker B: So strengths workshops are kind of like my, you know, my go to in a lot of cases, because a lot of organizations haven't done it. And even if they have, has the team changed? Because if the team is different now, the dynamics are different. And so the need for that kind of strengths revisiting still is. It, you know, is still a thing. [00:15:57] Speaker A: And the other thing about it is too, is let's be honest with ourselves. If the person who's working with you or your boss or next to you is asking you how you feel, it's not. It's different when it's somebody from the outside versus somebody who's sitting next to you or, you know, you see every single day, because you may not be as honest or forthcoming, you know. [00:16:15] Speaker B: No. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Or is it? [00:16:16] Speaker B: Well, and I. I think that's true. If that particular person has built trust with you, that's true. But I think what we see in organizations is trust is a challenge. And I think this does go back to the generational. I think in general, what the data shows is that younger generations are less trusting, naturally, of kind of their employers, of their leaders, of their managers, until that has been proven to be something they want to do. Right. They want to trust you with themselves, with their, you know, with their vulnerabilities. They have to know that they can first, and they're not going to do that automatically. And I think that is a little bit of a difference. We also see, you know, by kind of agent experience. [00:16:54] Speaker A: Absolutely. So what's this about, the Q12 engagement? What is that all about? [00:16:59] Speaker B: Yep. So that was what I was referencing. That's another Gallup tool. So as a. As a certified strengths coach, I also have access to a lot of the other tools that Gallup has. And so Q12 is one of those. And it's really this kind of. It's not necessarily like a360. So some folks are familiar with 360, but it's really designed to help identify on these 12 different measures what's really happening within a team. So some of the things I mentioned, you know, do people feel seen? Do they feel heard? Do they have the resources they need? Are expectations clear? Are roles clear? Like, there's. There's a handful of those 12 questions. So it's relatively quick and easy for people to take. It can be anonymous. They can add additional Comments if they want, and we can add in some questions that fit what a team is, you know, wanting to understand. But it really just helps give a roll up of where is this team at on this kind of one to five scale and how do they. What I love about it is it is because it's Gallup and Gallup has a ton of data. It also will measure that team against Gallup's overall database and says, okay, relative to other teams, like, here's where you're at, here's where you're really like doing great and here are these pockets where if you're going to put some time and investment, this is probably where it would make the most sense. And then that's where I can help them kind of figure out, okay, what would it look like to develop programming to fit these particular areas? Sometimes it's, there's a leader challenge to our earlier conversation, right. You've got someone who is an individual contributor, moved over, wasn't skilled or tooled appropriately. And so maybe it's some coaching to help them understand their leadership style, some of the barriers to that style and be able to communicate a little bit better with the people that they're leading. So it depends. The interventions are all different. Which is part of what I think is important is to not kind of cookie cutter the approach, but to really look at the need and then, and then build accordingly. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Well, what I find fascinating about that is that how do you get the two or three or one person that's the consternation person that'll refuse to be engaged or has to get pulled into engagement. Right. Because there's always a handful of people where they're, they're the eye roller. There's the person that. So how do you get what's, what's, what's the secret sauce to getting to those people to get involved? [00:19:12] Speaker B: Besides my charming personality? [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. [00:19:16] Speaker B: I think. You know what, here's what I have found is I have definitely had workshops where I have, I can instantly know the person who is not sort of showing up as their full self. Right. They're skeptical, they're. They don't believe it's worth the time. They don't want to be out of the office, like, you know, whatever the list of reasons is like. And I get it. What I tend to find, and I'll say this is particularly with strengths work. What I tend to find is that as we start to talk about who they are, what they uniquely bring to the team, and we spend time letting the team, reinforce that value to the team. All of a sudden what I see is people go, oh, interesting. Okay, this is what I uniquely bring. This is how other people see me and value me. I didn't know this. I'm learning this about my colleague. I didn't know that. That's why John asked me the questions the way he asked me. Now I understand him differently. Now my friction with him is a little different because I had this bias, I had this assumption about him and I've, I'm checking that like in real time. So what I find is that kind of, that self awareness breeds that curiosity in each other and that tends to, in the vast majority of people that kind of come in a little closed, it helps them leave a little bit more open and a little bit more interested in seeing kind of the bigger picture and really wanting to stake their own flag in their contribution to that. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you know, to be like just a quick sidebar is that I've talked to some other career coaches and the one thing it's helped me cultivate conversations with my three daughters, particularly my oldest one, you know, because she's in junior high. And so when you ask the question of how was your day at school? That's a very really one worded answer. That and, or even none at all. Right. You're just like, dang, it's nothing. But when you start saying what was interesting about what you did, how did you do in it? What was the challenge? I even asked a corny question. I'm like, what class do you like the least? And it was just like it just came out and it spilled out of her. Right. And you're like, man, you know, all it took was, to your point, a level of engagement that it can't just be a stock question and answer, so to speak. Right. You know, because otherwise you're going to get the very quick one worded reply that you didn't want. But in your mind you knew that wasn't a very good question to ask. [00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think this is, this is what leaders struggle with all the time, is they don't necessarily have that skill set for good questions. And so if you're going to engage someone and data absolutely shows that employees want one on one engagement. It doesn't have to be long, it doesn't have to be huge. It can be five minutes to ask about them, something personal, something impactful. Right, right. But leaders sometimes shy away from that. They don't necessarily know how to do it and they don't, they feel like they Have a clarity on what the boundaries of that are and what's helpful and what's intrusive or any of that. So I think teaching those skills becomes really, I think, an important part of leader development. I think the other thing I was thinking about the engagement you mentioned is I think the truth of it is that there will probably always be individuals on your team that are disengaged. And sometimes that has nothing to do with the team, with the organization, with the mission, with the people. Sometimes that is about who they are, where they are in the season that they're in, and no amount of development is going to pull them from that, for sure. And so there's also this level of kind of acceptance and deciding as a team, like, what do we do? You know, what do we do about this and how do we. How do we handle this as an organization when we have those individuals who are just in a place where they cannot engage through no fault of our own, but just for where they are. And I think those are hard conversations that leaders and organizations have to have. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And I've always used the analogy. Right. I don't know how much sports you watch. I watch, you know, a decent amount, but not. I'm more of a boxing, MMA guy. But it's almost like if there's like, basketball, baseball, hockey, etc. When they put teams together, you know, all it takes is one person that can absolutely poison a locker room. And it applies directly to a team or a business. Right. So you can be the lack of engage as long as you're on board with the goal. Right. If you're. But when it comes to their stats, their numbers, their individual, what they're looking for, it could turn toxic very quickly. And I'm sure part of your engagement process is to help companies identify, like, hey, if you've done everything that you can, I can only take you so far, but here's what the data shows at the same time. [00:23:46] Speaker B: Yep. No, definitely. [00:23:48] Speaker A: So where can people find you and your services? [00:23:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so probably. I mean, I'm on LinkedIn a good amount. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Yes, you are. [00:23:54] Speaker B: LinkedIn is always a great spot. Yeah, I love. I love to engage there. And then our website's probably the easiest, so just lead with curiosity. Co. So that's probably the best place you can find, you know, links to get in contact with me and get on my calendar to talk about your team and talk about how we can help. [00:24:10] Speaker A: And how big is your team, by the way? [00:24:11] Speaker B: So it is. It is me. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Okay. [00:24:13] Speaker B: I say we because I have some Folks that help me behind the scenes couldn't do it. [00:24:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:18] Speaker B: But I am. I am the one. I enjoy it so much. I love being with a team, so I definitely take all those opportunities that I can. But I've got a lot of folks in my network, so for bigger projects, I can bring in folks to help support. [00:24:32] Speaker A: Well, I'm, you know, I gotta tell you, listen, I'm. I've always told this to a number of guests, and this applies directly to you. I'm not smart enough to do what you do. That's the reason why I'm asking you what you do. Because my curiosity peaked when we got a chance to message back and forth. Because I really appreciate. I'm always following your LinkedIn posts and it's helped my mindset better when it comes to engagement, you know, outside of the box thinking. And you shouldn't be restricted just by the world that's in front of you. Right. So it's very important to look past and see things in a bigger perspective. And, you know, some of the things that you post have helped me done through that. [00:25:05] Speaker B: So I appreciate that. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. So I gotta tell you, it's been an honor, especially the work you do with military spouses and the continued work that you do with businesses, teams and individuals. Jennifer Pasquale, Excuse me. Thank you so much for being on the Tron podcast. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [00:25:18] Speaker A: Anytime. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Sam.