Michael Ostrolenk

[00:00:18] Speaker A: This is your host, Rashad Woods. Today I have a very special guest. He works on resiliency and capturing the most maximum potential out of the human spirit and fighting doubts among people. He's great help. Excellent market martial arts, by the way. We can get into that as well too, because I'm, I love martial artists. I'm a black belt myself. Mr. Michael Austri. How are you, sir? [00:00:38] Speaker B: I'm fantastic. I appreciate having you on your show today. Looking forward to this conversation. [00:00:42] Speaker A: Yeah, can't wait. Can't wait. I was really excited when I saw your profile and you reached out to me. So I'm glad we got a chance to link up. You know, you have a very interesting background. You've gone from, you're, you're a coach. You also, you're also a marriage counselor. Certified marriage and family counselor as well too. So give us a little bit of your background on how you have such a diverse skill set. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's actually even crazier than that. We can get into that too. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Yeah, let's do that. [00:01:03] Speaker B: But yeah, I'm actually almost 30 years licensed as a marriage and family therapist out of the state of California. I don't reside in California. Been a coach for about 25 years. About a decade working at Seal Fit under the, under the auspices of Commander Mark Devine, creating and running his unbeatable Mind Academy. Worked for another seal based company called Spartan 7. Unfortunately, the gentleman, Dan Cirillo, passed away two years ago. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Sorry to hear about that. [00:01:27] Speaker B: Collapsed. Great dude. But great company. And other opportunities too, man. Like, you know, I, I was director of Human Resilience at a Paron Zoe. It's a precision based medical clinic. I'm presently in Austin, Texas. Here in Austin. [00:01:38] Speaker A: I saw that on your LinkedIn profile. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, so. But I'm nomadic, so. Well, I shouldn't say that completely. I've been in Texas for about a year. Came from Ecuador and I'm leaving here in about four months. Yeah. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Really? Really. So you, you've gone from California, you're in New York, Texas, Ecuador. You know what keeps you moving all the time? How do you, how do you have that kind of environment? Like, is it just where the road takes you? [00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So the original impetus for the traveling was actually a divorce. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:09] Speaker B: Separation. Need to be separated from your wife for a certain period of time for the whole thing to happen. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker B: And I was like, you know, instead of just moving down the street and waiting for the whole process unfold, I'm just going to hit the road. [00:02:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:02:19] Speaker B: I don't need that much stuff. I don't have that much stuff. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:22] Speaker B: You know, so like, I literally, for about a year and a half, travel around the country. Also went to South America. Yeah. [00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:28] Speaker B: I kind of landed here in Austin, Texas. Been here about a year. I'm going to pick up my roots and travel again soon. [00:02:33] Speaker A: Man. So you backpacking it, Right? So that's, that's dope. You know, that's kind of the way the human spirit can operate, man. And you know what I found fascinating for you is that it seems like you said you've always had to push your limits even at a young age. So what inspired you to want to help people, you know, reach their potential? [00:02:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I really appreciate that question. And it is really a driver of all the things I've done. I was really lucky. I had really supportive parents. And the reason I say it that way is I had some troubles as a kid. Learned disabilities. I had some health issues. They came together and they led me to be a. What's called a hair puller. Like, I pulled my hair. It's an obsessive compulsive disorder. You know, it's around eight or nine years old. And the funny story, then it leads to the. To answer your question is my mom took me to see a psychiatrist. This is 1979, long time ago. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Before it's socially acceptable to really text taking kids to do that and stuff like that. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is very true. And then also consider back in the day, in the 70s, 80s, even 90s price till today. First psychiatrist just put you on medication. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Exactly. 150. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Which, no argument. Fortunately for me, that didn't work out. And so I sat with the psychiatrist. I did my first session with them. My mom's sitting next to me because I'm a child. And apparently I turned to her and I said, he's fat and he smokes. He can't help himself. How's he going to help me? And I literally walked out of the room, which is effing obnoxious for a nine year old. Right. But it was true to certain extent. [00:03:56] Speaker A: I always say this. I always say, if you ever want to be told a lie, don't be in front of a kid because they can't, they can't lie about things. [00:04:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:05] Speaker A: I got three daughters. And, you know, if you ever want to be told, like, you know, hey, you're 6ft 5 and have washboard abs, don't ask your child, that's awesome. Don't do it. [00:04:14] Speaker B: She was like, dad, you need to do some more sit ups. [00:04:19] Speaker A: That's exactly how the conversation goes. [00:04:21] Speaker B: The keto diet or something. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Then you're like, you're on punishment for that, by the way. [00:04:25] Speaker B: That's funny. Oh, man. So I walked out. My mom agreed with me. You know, I got really lucky because I could, you know, could have gotten really a lot of trouble, but instead she found me a therapist. A psychotherapist, not a psychiatrist. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:04:37] Speaker B: This is Pat Lawson and. And Ms. Lawson. This is 1979, taught me biofeedback. You can imagine technology is nothing what it was today. But as a little kid when biofeedback was awesome, she taught me guided imagery meditation, got me to the martial arts. And that just kind of opened my whole world up to like, self regulation, self management, you know, kind of more of a warrior approach to life in terms of, you know, mastering oneself and stuff like that. And because of my experiences with her and opening up to this whole new world, like, you know, I wanted to contribute to what helped me to. For helping other people. To answer your question originally. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Right, right, right. So you eventually went to the coaching through the New York Mastery Seal Fit Unbeatable Mind Academy. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Well, so a couple different things. So my first foray into kind of the therapeutic coaching world is I got a master's degree in John F. Kennedy University in transpersonal counseling Psychology. I did postgraduate work at the California Institute for Integral Studies and somatic or body psychology. So that was all kind of my graduate post graduate studies. And I can answer any questions you have about that before I get into anything else. [00:05:41] Speaker A: Just learning the human condition. Right. Just learning what makes. Right. And what you. What kind of courses. So that's so deep because like it goes from people's mental state to depression to the chemical imbalances that can take place in the human body, you know, endorphins. So what details did you find out? Like what preconceived notions were there versus what you found out through your studies in education? [00:06:01] Speaker B: Well, so my graduate degree was in transpersonal counseling psychology. So in order to get licensed, the state of California, you have to study the conventional schools of psychology. Object relations and self psychology and family systems, cognitive behavioral. I learned all those things, but my specialization is transpersonal. I can answer the question you just asked. What are some of the things I studied? So transpersonal means. Trans means through and beyond the personal. So if you look at all the religious systems in the world, whether Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, the shamanic traditions from south and Central America or Africa, all of them to one degree or another, have practices that they encourage their members to do to change consciousness. Prayer, meditation, yogic breathing or breathing practices. Some if it's yoga, it's yoga breathing practices. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Medicine, central deprivation, chanting, a variety of different. Depending on the. Depending what the religious system is, but they have the various practices. So we actually study those different practices and we try to understand how they affect human consciousness, human health and well being, whether it's plant medicine or some deprivation or meditation or various things. And there's a lot of growing research to support the various practices in terms of improving health and well being. So that's some of the things I studied in grad school. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Right. And so now you go. And you also worked in national security as well, too. Like, how did you even. What. It's like, what is this dichotomy? Like, all of a sudden you're in immunity, you know? Then all of a sudden you're working in cyber threats, you know, cyber influence, Federal Reserve when it comes to transparency. Transparency and everything like that. What. How did that delve into. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Okay, so, like, the joke is that two things. I, I follow my curiosity and I'm a hole filler. And you're like, oh, there's something not being done there. I should go do that. And I'll lay that as larger thematic things in my life. [00:07:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:50] Speaker B: I don't know if you know the work of Ken Wilber. He's a. He's a. He written probably about 20 books on integral theory. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:57] Speaker B: And when I finished my graduate work, I was invited to join his think tank. [00:08:01] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:08:02] Speaker B: And it had different divisions in the think tank, and one of the divisions was policy, politics. And that wasn't mine. I was actually education. I should have been psychology, but I was education because at the time I was building educational programs at a university in California. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:16] Speaker B: But I met a gentleman, Drexel Sprecher, who was part of the political branch, and we talked for like four hours. I need you to be part of the political branch because the way your mind thinks. Cool. So Ken invited me to the political branch and I started meeting people. And one of the people I met was a lady named Betsy Litterfeld, whose partner was Jim Turner, who's one of the first six Nader Raiders in Washington, D.C. wow. Big, big, strong proponent of health freedom, access to organic foods and natural medicines and dietary supplements. And he, He's. He did yeoman's work in that space. Unfortunately, he passed away a couple years ago, but I met Jim. And Jim is. And I. And I just moved back to the east coast. And I was transferring my license and getting ready to open up a practice. And Jim's like, well, while you're waiting to do that, why don't you do some work for me? I'm like, cool, why not? Okay, yeah, yeah. I'm. I'm interested in natural medicine. I actually spent a couple years working with a couple doctors in California, integrated medicine kind of space. So that's kind of right up my alley. Anyways, mind body medicine, Right? [00:09:13] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:14] Speaker B: So I, I got into the policy world, and I can tell you stories upon stories, but opened one door after the other, the other after the other, and eventually it led me from doing kind of healthcare freedom type work to civil liberties type work. And then all of a sudden it just moved into the national security space, which is foreign policy, defense reform, cybersecurity, all kinds of stuff. And literally it was me going, wow. I. No formal education except as a therapist, but I'm a quick study and I'd read and talk to all the experts in the field, learn enough that I could step in and actually participate in conversations and help move policy. And I give you the most funniest example. Towards the end of my career, I gave. I was on a panel on Capitol Hill on the future. [00:09:58] Speaker A: That's crazy. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah. On capital, the future of counterterrorism. And I was with former CIA, former DIA guy, a former seal. And there might have been another guy from, I can't remember which. Which branch. Which. Not which branch, which government agency he was from. [00:10:16] Speaker A: That's what I was just alluding to. I'm like, people spend decades trying to get, you know, like, you know, they, they go through, hey, I'm going to go through college, I'm going to go through the military, then I'm going to go through law enforcement. And then their application sits in a queue, and then they have to pass all these rigorous exams, you know, to get even a sniff of that opportunity. And here you are, because of the connections that you made, because of the right people that you talk to, because your intuition, your people skills and your background, you're like, I'm going to go around that. And I'm sitting right here, which is. [00:10:48] Speaker B: Really crazy because I, I look at like half the stuff I did in the policy space. I'm like, on, like you said, I'm not formally educated. It's not my background. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:56] Speaker B: But you know, I'm like, oh, I want to learn that. I studied as deeply as possible, and I operated from what I call a transpartisan perspective through and beyond the partisan. So if you throw an issue my way, I'll be like, okay, how did the conservatives think about that? How do the neoconservers think about that? How the paleo conservatives, the progressives, liberals, the greens, the libertarians, the, you know, I just want to understand from all the different perspectives and then I'll take all the academics too. I'm like, oh, how do the different, you know, viewpoints in academia look at this particular issue? [00:11:22] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:11:23] Speaker B: So I did that with like half a dozen different issues and then I found people to hire me to do stuff in that space. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Hey, listen, you know, and that's what consulting turns into, you know, and you become the subject matter expert. And I think it may have benefited you because you're like, hey, listen, I'm not coming in here that I went to this educational institution and I was able to only have this perspective. I'm not your alumni. I, I am a guy from the outside looking in who can take a bird's eye view on these topics at hand. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:48] Speaker A: You know? [00:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So I had two parallel lives. Full time jobs, coaching and therapy and then the public policy work for about 20 years together. [00:11:57] Speaker A: That's insane, man. So I wonder, like, you know, I hope you don't tell me anything I'm not supposed to hear. So I don't, you know, get anybody who's listening. Please don't, don't tell me anything to put me in danger. Right. So, so you did tactical training as well too, right? Like, man, like this is deep. You got so many different things. You dive. How did that, how did that, what's that next layer? [00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, here's, and this is the whole feeling under, want to understand these things. I, I, I'm a civil libertarian. So this is around the Patriot act time. Patriot passed in 2001, around 2003, I think some of the provisions were back up 702 and 215. And as a civil libertarian of Fourth Amendment promoting, and I'm like, so I'm running around the Hill, Capitol Hill saying we should protect the fourth Amendment, we should protect the fourth Amendment. And, and except for a few libertarian Republicans and few libertarian Democrats, most people are like, security, security, security. Well, we should give up our rights to so we can be more secure. And I'm like, right, right. I don't believe that to be true. But in making these arguments we got a lot of pushback. Yeah, but security, there's real threats out there. I'm like, yeah, there are real threats. We should deal with the threats. But doesn't Mean we have to deprive ourselves of our inalienable rights to life, happiness. But that argument wasn't going very far. So I was like, okay, I need to better understand how they think about security, right? So I'm like, I don't have time to go like get 812 years into security apparatus. So I'm going to go get some training. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:13:17] Speaker B: So I became a PI. I got trained as a pps, a personal protection specialist. I did a few different classes. I did some classes with some former Mossad guys on countertourism. So I just wanted to kind of dive in and kind of understand security and investigations more from the law enforcement security side of things. And I did it for a couple of years and I literally did that for a couple years while I was doing all these other things too. But it's more of a mindset. I wanted to understand what type of. [00:13:41] Speaker A: Discipline does it take to actually get involved in that? Because, you know, TV is one thing. Like, you know, I've heard, you know, documentaries or even YouTube videos where people like, listen, man, it's not as action packed as people make it out to be. It's very detailed, it's very methodical, it's very research based and driven and behavior based driven and things like that. [00:13:59] Speaker B: So, so for instance, as a personal protection specialist, I remember when I was in school studying this stuff and it was great program. Executive Protection Institute is who I studied underneath. I've seen that, I've seen that they're really, really good. And I remember that they shared with us there. I think there's three schools, three schools. Approaches to personal protection. The American, the British and Israeli. Okay, and the American is you. You. If your principal's under threat, you, you remove him from the, from the, the territory he's under threat on. Cool. The British, as you said, perimeter. You protect them from the threat. Israelis go attack the threat. It's like just a completely different mindset, which makes sense because in America you're not going to have real threats. I mean, occasionally you might have someone who dislikes the policies and they might become verbally abusive. But most of the time there's not like an assassination attempt, kidnapping attempt. Like, you know, maybe the same principal goes to Mexico, they could get kidnapped, or Colombia, they could get kidnapped. But that doesn't really too much happen here in the States. [00:15:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:01] Speaker B: So it's, it's, it's less of a really physical threat against the person completely. Because there are crazy people out there who might want to threaten your principal without question. [00:15:09] Speaker A: No question. [00:15:10] Speaker B: Different, you know, I eventually got trained and certified so I could carry under State department contract internationally. Because that would be more interesting like if you take your principal and you go to, you know, third world country. Real threats exist. [00:15:23] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:15:23] Speaker B: More of a real threat exist. [00:15:24] Speaker A: Well, you know, you hear about it like they've storm capitals of presidents houses and actually dragged them out in certain countries before. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:32] Speaker A: So things of that nature when it, when it came to, you know, other locations. So just the ability, I mean, man, like, I mean, jeez, you went to college and had. You just kind of went off the course and found this along the way. And it's just one thing led to another. Like I assumed when I was reading your background that you were ex military. That's the first thing I thought of thing I was like, okay, he did SEAL fit. So I was like, well, that maybe that's associated with military. But it's like, no, it's just like kind of a hell week to put yourself through, you know, a small fraction of what they could with those guys and what those people go through. [00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah. With SEAL fit. So. And I ended up working for Sil FIT for a decade. But. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:16:09] Speaker B: I can tell you the story of me led me to seal fit. So I was 39 and my wife at the time was like, you know, what do you want to do for your 40th birthday? It's kind of a big deal. I'm like. And she's thinking, I'm going to say go to the islands and hang out the islands and have a good time. And you know, I'd spend some time with people from Navy Special Warfare and some of the other work I was doing. So I'm like, I want to look into that. So I looked into that and Mark Divine, Commander Divine, had a. What's called three weeks SOF Academy. It's a three week program. You live on campus. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:35] Speaker B: You train. It's really four weeks, but you train for three to four weeks, like 12, 14 hours a day. And it's a pre buds training program. So is preparing young men who want to go Navy Special Warfare. Mark has about 80% success rate of people who go through his program and make it through buds. [00:16:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:49] Speaker B: And on the tail end of that, he had something called Kokoro Indomitable Spirit camp, which is model after Hell week, which you just mentioned. But it's 50 hours instead of five full days. Civilian version of hell week. I. I lived with him for a month, you know, train 12, 14 hours a day. The five guys I live with all. Have all became SEALs. I was 39. I was going, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're all like 21, 22, 23, you know, young guys. And actually the funny thing is like one of them just is retiring. I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, Right, right. [00:17:21] Speaker A: Like that's insane. [00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I did, I did all the. I did the three week, which is really four weeks training program. I can tell you some funny stories. I do corporal camp. And then a year later, Mark reaches out to me, he's like, you know, I want to take what we did in that month long period of time and create a training program. But not just for young men who want to go Navy social warfare, but for hockey moms and hockey dads, law enforcement. But scale it, you know, because not people can't take a month off to go train. [00:17:47] Speaker A: No question. [00:17:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker A: So you truncate it in a smaller period of time. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And make it online and videos and audios and written materials and all kinds of stuff in person training. So he brought me on and we built that and I launched it. I ran that for him and other programs for him as well. [00:18:01] Speaker A: What makes that cool too, is it make, you know, people can get stagnant in their personal or professional lives. And so now that's the chance we're like, okay, now I'm going back to a discipline level. And you know, it can make you a better. A better at any level of where you're at professionally or personally. Better wife, better husband, a better bro, brother, a better co worker, you know? Right. And so now all of a sudden you're like, I put myself through this to reach a better version of myself because it's easy for people to go through the motions of anything. Like you do martial arts. Like, I'm sure you were a better martial artist after you did this, because. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Like a funny story. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Well, let me tell you something that. I'll tell you the funny story. Well, actually both are kind of funny. So I remember when I finished the three weeks off academy and copro camp, my wife at the time, like maybe like a year later, I was complaining about something. She's like, I wouldn't keep complaining. I'm like, why? [00:18:48] Speaker A: She's. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Because I'm going to tell Commander Divine you're complaining. But so the. And this is the martial arts stuff. So I was training to be an assistant. Why was it I was training and then I was an assistant Krav Maga instructor? [00:18:59] Speaker A: That's a tough style. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it was awesome. That's a tough style to a law enforcement class. So we had, we had police officers, federal and state. Well, actually this is federal, state and local. And I would go back to San Diego, this is in D.C. metro. And I'd go back to San Diego once a quarter for SEAL fit. [00:19:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:16] Speaker B: And I go, you know, teach and train and all that kind of good stuff. And I come back with new ideas. And the cops hated me coming back with new ideas because I'd be like, I know how to crush you guys even more. Because my thinking was this, and you'll appreciate this. It's like police officers are under undue amounts of stress when they're detaining a perpetrator, chasing them in a car or on foot, whatever it is. So they're, they're ratcheted up, like adrenalized. [00:19:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:19:41] Speaker B: But this isn't a war. They need to learn how to manage themselves while making an arrest. They don't hurt someone. You know, the appropriate use of force. [00:19:48] Speaker A: Exactly right. [00:19:49] Speaker B: So I would, I would put these guys under immense pressure, like from the stuff I learned from Silver, to bring it back, crush them, and then have them fight. Yeah. And they hated it, but they loved it because they recognized, like, it's really, you know, that's going to make them better at law enforcement. [00:20:03] Speaker A: Well, the thing is about when it comes to, you know, I mean, they have to be, their, their attention has to be 24 7. Right. What? You know, the person that could have a switchblade, a gun, a weapon, somebody, you know. Right, exactly. Right. And somebody even, you know, walking down the street, I mean, it, it can go from what they call 0 to 100 real quick. Right. You know what I mean? And so, you know, and the reality about it is, I say this all the time, you know, this is a martial artist. There's a lot of talented people out there. And you need to be extra precautious because you can run into a guy who's, you know, you've trained, guys are doing tournaments, they're, they're winning gold medals every other weekend. You know, there's Golden Gloves guys out there. There are some seriously upper level people that if you're not careful, you'll get sparked out quick, man. [00:20:47] Speaker B: Well, I mean, back in my day, it was like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Now it's like UFC stuff like. Yeah, everyone's training the mixed martial arts, all kinds of stuff. [00:20:56] Speaker A: Yeah, no doubt, man. You know, when I, you know, I'm 42 and the only places that were available, you know, was either Wrestling in high school or a karate or a Taekwondo place. [00:21:03] Speaker B: Taekwondo, that's my first martial art as a kid. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Because that's all that was like, within a 15, 20 mile radius of your house, right? [00:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:09] Speaker A: Now you look at, you know, those jiu jitsu places, now there's Muay Thai places, and you're just like, my gosh, like, this was just not available. No. Post 2000 it is. But pre. Man, you could forget about it, man. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm. I'm in my middle 50s, so, like, yeah, I feel you on, like, the taekwondo, karate or is 100. [00:21:27] Speaker A: So, you know, I wanted to circle back a bit when you talked about, you know, the. The Patriot act stuff. You know, I was in college when 9, 11 happened. [00:21:35] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:35] Speaker A: And so what made it so interesting when you said about securities and civil liberties was, you know, back in the day, you could pick somebody up at the airport and hang out in an airport, right? You could literally just, if your friend was working, you know, at the McDonald's inside of there, you could just drive in there, you know, chill. Have. I mean, everything changed post that. So here you are right in the thick of things, and it just does a 180, right? And that had to be chaotic, man, because you're learning it on the fly. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Well, it's really interesting because, like, there's perception as reality. So I opposed most of the government programs at the time. I retired from this four years ago, so I'm not really paying too much close attention. But, you know, I spent 20 years in the space, and, you know, the government would claim this program, whatever the program is, does this, and you look at the research on it when they get tested out, and it doesn't like tsa, this is back in the day. I don't know their numbers now, but they failed more than they succeeded in terms of when someone would try to get, like, bombs, guns or knives through. I don't mean a criminal or a terrorist, but, like, they would test the systems out, right? So many cases, I think the majority of them, that the TSA would fail, which is like, we're putting all this time, effort and money to programs, and they actually don't. They don't work. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Right. And then. But, you know, but what had happened was so massive, so cataclysmic. Everything was on the table, so to speak. And so, like, I would. I'm. I'm. I'm paraphrasing this a little bit. I would guess the dissenting voices were not being heard because they're like, I don't want to hear that. This is plowing forward whether you like it or not. Right. Because it was just nothing like that had never happened. [00:23:06] Speaker B: You. You nailed it. And that's why I went to start studying the terrorism, counterterrorism, purity, all that stuff. Because I want to understand from that perspective. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:15] Speaker B: So I can make the arguments like, you know, I can make the arguments all day long. Fourth Amendment, Fourth Amendment, Fourth Amendment. But right after 9, 11, for the first couple years, everyone's. Not everyone. Most people scared. They want to give up their freedoms or liberties for security. But then, sure, the arguments. Okay, let's just. Let's just assume for the moment where you're going to do that. But are you actually more secure? [00:23:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:33] Speaker B: And a lot of the arguments we make, you're actually less secure because these programs actually don't work for the most part, or didn't work as much as they could have worked. Yeah. [00:23:41] Speaker A: I have to talk about you as a resiliency coach because everything that you went through seems like you built up a pretty indomitable spirit. And that means that no bs, no excuses, get right down to business and, you know, put yourself through Hell Week when obviously, you know, you didn't have to do that. And so what did you find out from people who went through it? And more importantly, how did you find out about yourself? [00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So the Kokoro camp is modeled after Hell Week. I just want to make it clear I didn't go through. [00:24:06] Speaker A: I apologize. Yes. [00:24:08] Speaker B: Still Helwick. I went to the civilian version under Commander Divine. And Mark's commit. I'll just call Mark because he's a friend, but Commander Divine. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:16] Speaker B: You know, he's always say, you'll meet yourself for the first time going through this stuff, you know, and it's so true because you run into yourself, like your emotional, physical and mental limitations. [00:24:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:26] Speaker B: You know, because you think about you. You literally. You don't sleep. You're training for 50 hours. You're in the ocean, on the beach, on the Grinder, log PT subs, pull ups, push ups. You do merge morph. You're doing all various CrossFit workouts, really. And you get to eat, but there's no sleep. So, you know, and you. And this is the greatest thing. You'll have two different seals, because they had seals come in and. And seal cadres come in and do this for us. And they tell you two different things. They give you different instructions. You're like, which. Which way do I go? You know, so, like, it's emotionally stressful. You're physically exhausted, you're mentally exhausted. And what you tap into is what Mark calls kokoro, your indomitable spirit. Your heart or your spirit. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:06] Speaker B: Because your body is like, I want to give up. Your emotions are over. Yeah. [00:25:12] Speaker A: You know, and you get past the point of exhaustion. [00:25:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Because then your body's like, you know, I mean, I'll take my own. I haven't gone anywhere close with that. But when you get intensely training in martial arts, you know, and you start finding out what you're really made of. Right. You know, you know, there's a difference between going against the guy who's somewhat out of shape and you can handle. But when you're going against a beast, you're going against somebody who's really talented. And, you know, you find out real quick, you know what, man, I think those Saturdays I was sleeping in, it's time to step the game up a little bit broke. Because that ain't gonna cut it, not with the level that I do. And so that's amazing. So when you get these soccer moms and you get these dads, like, like, how did this. How did the bodies adjust to such an extreme change? Is there, like a period to kind of acclimate somebody? [00:25:56] Speaker B: Well, if we're talking about SEAL Fit, Unbeatable Mind Academy, it's, you know, we have different degrees of the program at the time, and some people just fell off the couch, and some people are elite athletes and everything in between. So, you know, we. We would organize the training where those people are at, and help them get to the next level. [00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:13] Speaker B: It wasn't like, hey, fall off the couch, you can do still level training. [00:26:16] Speaker A: That's right. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Right. That's trouble. When I personally work with clients and more in the resilience space, it's very similar. Where are you at and what are the next steps? And I have a friend of mine, Dennis Stoica. He's a former Marine. He's law enforcement now. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:29] Speaker B: And he wrote a book. It's called one percent Better Every Day. Oh. I want to make sure I say it properly. I'm going to mess it up like the subtitles, like, 1% better every day. And I always think about that. Like, for my clients, I want them to be 1% better every day. So if they're not, Excuse me, If they're not elite athletes, that's okay. You can start here. You can start ratcheting up a little bit. Improve your, you know, physical performance, your mental resilience, your emotional resilience, your spiritual Resilience, your interpersonal resilience. It takes time, training and effort. And there's no, there's no magic pills. Like, that's the challenge here in America at least is like, you know, instant gratification. We order something that's Amazon and it shows up yesterday. But like, if you want to be more resilient mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually and interpersonally, you got to work daily. Practices. That's required. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Well, you know, I, you know, it's funny is you funny you mentioned that because, you know, I hear, I once thought I was in shape at one point and then, you know, I was doing jiu jitsu with a classmate. We're really cool. You know, I wouldn't call us super close friends. We were tight. And so his wife filmed it and then he sent me the video through messenger and then I was like, yo, I didn't realize I was that out of shape. [00:27:30] Speaker B: All right. [00:27:31] Speaker A: My stomach was like, here I am thinking I'm like looking, feeling good. And then to your point, until you get an outside perspective, a non biased visual view of where you're at. And I literally cleared my fridge after that. I'm like, I look like, oh, nice, nice. Right. And so I'm not saying I, but to your point, you can't hide from that. And so you find out who you really are and it humbles you. It really does. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:55] Speaker A: So. [00:27:55] Speaker B: And to that point, when I start working with clients, I'm not a doctor nutritionist. But fitness, movement, diet, nutrition, sleep, all those are important pieces of my work. And I have all my clients get baseline blood work. Right. I want to understand where they're at, Work with the functional medicine doctor, work with epigenetics coach, get their baselines. And there's some psychological testing I do as well with people because you get the baselines and you can show improvements over time, which is really important because you don't know where you're starting. Well, a DEXA scan, what your fat muscle ratio is like, oh, I'm 25% body fat or 50% body fat, I'm 10% body fat. @ least you know where you're starting from. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:28:30] Speaker B: And then you do all the practices and the disciplines, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, interpersonally, and you hopefully you see improvements over time. [00:28:38] Speaker A: Well, I think the key you hit too was that people have the instant gratification is even worse now because to your point, the buttons are easy to access, but the process isn't any quicker. Right. The back end work. Right. So people are like, oh, I measure my calories every day. Yeah, that's cool. But if you're not actually still working out or not still actually changing your diet, you're not doing anything. You order a pizza, the pizza hasn't actually made faster, your communication just got faster. If your pizza itself to put the ingredients on top of it, cook it through the oven for 12 minutes. Right. So people are like, oh, I started dieting and you can't put a window on when you're going to get in shape. Oh, I'm going to just be in shape for six months. I'm just going to be mentally strong for six months. Because you've already set an end date to where that's going to be capped out at. [00:29:20] Speaker B: Right. And you know, just instant gratification. I work a lot of young men and the availability of like monster drinks and like supplements, which I'd question the validity of them in terms of long term health consequences. [00:29:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Or even a lot of like steroids and stuff. Like all these young guys are like, you know, okay, they're going to be in great, in quotes, great shape, but they're screwing themselves if they ever want to be a parent or a father. Well. Or their long term health of their, their heart because they're taking all these stimulants, man, it's crazy. [00:29:52] Speaker A: It's so funny you say that because like if you actually look, everybody Google will be like, okay, I'm half these influence, I'm not dissing them. They're obviously some great shaped people, but a lot of them are on steroids. Like that's just, it's just a fact. Anybody who's been worth assault in their gym will say there's no way that's natural. There's just no way that's natural. But the image of it pushes people to dangerous places. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially these young people. It's one thing if you're like in your 50s and 60s, you're on TRT because your levels are low and you're working with a functional medicine doctor. You're working full cascade of hormones. [00:30:22] Speaker A: 100%. Absolutely. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Like not when you're 21. [00:30:25] Speaker A: No. [00:30:25] Speaker B: And your testosterone should be at a normal, I mean now there are problems in our society, culturally, environmentally speaking, sort of. Sperm levels are lower, testosterone levels are lower because how we poison our environment, you know, so there might be younger people who have troubles, but not the number of people that I'm, I'm noticing. They're not having trouble, they're just trying. [00:30:43] Speaker A: To right the shit. The sheer availability of it all. You know, just is through the roof, I tell you. You know, you probably. Have you written any books? I just have to ask that before. [00:30:52] Speaker B: So I have a book sitting over here that's unpublished. [00:30:55] Speaker A: Okay. Because, like, man, like, this is, like, I could probably pick your brain for probably, like, two days, and I still wouldn't have scratched the surface. You. But in respect to your time, you know, I think that this is one of the most fascinating, you know, stories I've ever heard. You know, you know, country hopper, state hopper, you know, federal government, you know, resiliency coach, worked with Navy SEALs, helps train law enforcement, you know, expert martial artists. Like, man, this is just. You got a roundabout skill set. And that's what the Tron Podcast is all about. To talk to people like you. [00:31:25] Speaker B: I appreciate. I've enjoyed this conversation, man. If you ever want to continue it offline, more than happy to jump on the zoom. [00:31:30] Speaker A: No, I appreciate it. You know, Tang Soo, do taekwondo and Brazilian jiu jitsu and Muay Thai, myself. So nice. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Okay. [00:31:37] Speaker A: I love it. I love martial arts, man. I love people. I love talking to people about it, too. [00:31:41] Speaker B: That's cool. You know, offline, there's some people I would like to hook you up with for possible guests, if you're interested. [00:31:47] Speaker A: I would love that, man. I love a great conversation. So, Michael, I appreciate your time, and that's what the Tron Podcast is all about. People like you and the great work that you do, and I can't thank you enough for carving out some time for me. [00:31:58] Speaker B: I appreciate you, man. Thanks. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Have a great one. [00:32:01] Speaker B: You too.