Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Listeners of the Tron podcast, this is your host, Rashad Woods. I've always had the opportunity to talk to fascinating people and that's the reason I created this show. And nothing epitomizes this curiosity and the opportunity to talk to interesting people like the current guest that I have right now. She's an author, former nun, archeologist, I believe, former archaeologist, and all around global and world traveler, N.L. holmes. Thank you. This is an honor. This is, this is, I mean, your biography. Honestly, I'm not trying to be, probably hurt. It sounds like Indiana Jones. I can't.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: It's kind of spotty.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: You know, there's nothing that locks you into one path in life.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: It's, it's, it's amazing. Can you please just dive in your background? Please?
[00:00:40] Speaker B: Well, I grew up in Texas and I knew from a very young age that I wanted to go into archeology. And I got sidetracked at college. I kind of, I studied archeology, but I was in the honors program. So there was not like a, it was a different major in itself. So. And then this was in the 60s and everybody was sort of searching for meaning and you know, it was kind of the existential crisis of the, of the 60s there. So I, I quit college and went into the antiques business briefly with the help of my family and I did that for a couple of years. And more and more it was clear this was not, you know, it was a profession, not a, not a calling. So yeah, I started looking into the Discalced Carmelite nuns and after a year or so of groping around in that, I, I entered the order and spent the next 19 years of my life there.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: That's amazing.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: And then I came out and went back to school immediately and got my degree in archaeology and started teaching and excavating and everything and did that for 25 years, I guess. And then I retired and then I started to write.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: And you're actually, first of all, you know, I went to Catholic school. I went to a Catholic elementary school for seven years, but that was, you know, that's a lifetime ago. So, you know, I found that was fascinating, you know, that you delved into that and then went to archeology. Was there a period in time when you were, you know, as a nun that you were still fascinated? Did you do anything related to archaeology? You know, history, obviously there's a lot of history of religion as a whole. But was there something that was, that you were working towards, where it got towards later years of your, of being a, in as a nun, that you said you wanted to pivot and do this instead?
[00:02:24] Speaker B: No, not really. This was not one of the sort of teaching or intellectual orders. It was. They were cloistered, they were, you know, dedicated to prayer and contemplation.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: And so it was almost anti intellectual in a strange way.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: But I, I did. We had, you know, a set of the great books, and I did read that and I.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: I encountered Aristophanes, the, the comic playwright of ancient Greece. And curiously enough, that sort of gelled for me, the direction I wanted to go with archeology. When I had been in college as a young person, I didn't know really what culture I wanted to pursue, and I was sort of drifting towards Mesoamerica.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Perhaps. But this, this pushed me in that.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: Direction when you, you know, what are the, some of the misconceptions about archeology? Because there's so many movies and you know that, that have that in there because history is so rich. But your travels have taken you around the world. And I'm fanning out right now because I'm, I'.
I really am because I'm like, there's so many things I want to just rattle off, but I need to kind of compose myself. So you had a chance to go to Greece, Israel, Lebanon. What was it part of? Educational. Was it part of a, you know, you know, a group? How did, how does, how does that field work and operate? How did that take you to those locations?
[00:03:45] Speaker B: Well, excavations, because they cost so much, are usually sponsored by a university.
So in Crete, I was with the University of Toronto. In Israel, I was with the University of Duke University.
[00:03:58] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: And in the, the Lebanese material was through, I guess, Haverford College.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: And so, you know, you, you apply to work with the group. And I was a graduate student at the time I started.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: So I was recommended by a professor who knew me and I made my application. And in, in neither case was I actually a trench worker because I had other kind of skills that were useful.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: So in, in Crete, I was the dig house manager and, and chief cataloger. So which was nice because I got to see everything that came out of the ground.
[00:04:37] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: And in Israel I was an artist, so I, I drew all the pieces.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Beautiful.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: And it was a lot of fun. It again, you get to see everything. It's not, you're not. Occasionally I would substitute as a trench master if somebody had to be absent. So.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Okay, what's, what's that position? I'm not familiar with that.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: That would be like actually supervising a group of workmen in a trench.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Okay, okay. I saw, you know, one of your interviews you had done before where, you know, this is, this is backdating a bit off this topic where you were actually said that in Florida that they were finding cemeteries and things under buildings and you know, various other. So, you know, the unfortunate reality is, is a lot of these, you know, historical places with a lot of things now have current buildings and businesses that are over on top of them. That's got to be a challenge work. And then, you know, people's relatives and descendants or history that was lost, so to speak. That has to be a large challenge in your line of work.
[00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. There's a whole branch of archeology that they call.
Oh gosh, what is the word now? Well, it's, it's the people who run in ahead of a construction job and try to excavate to some extent just enough to know what's down there. And of course you, you know, for example, in Athens when they were digging the subway system before the Olympic Games, everywhere they dig, they kept finding, you know, ancient buildings and they'd have to rush the archaeologists down there and, and so now they have them all displayed in this underground, you know, so you can kind of see them.
But still it's frustrating because you can't take the time and. Yes, and normally when you excavate a site, you always leave a corner undug so that future generations with better technology can come back and learn more out of it all. That's unfortunately salvage archaeology. That's the term I was.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I just find it, you know, because, you know, is, is, is the, is it better? How does that work? Is it the preservation of it once it's located? And then it's better left as a historical landmark, walled off. Like how does that process work when things of high level value or history are found?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Usually when they're cleared, they will be. If it's sort of minor value or at least of lesser public interest, they'll fill it back up.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: With dirt. So.
So it doesn't degrade further.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: But in some cases, like the excavation.
Well, both the sites where I was excavating, they're left cleared and they, they're turned into a kind of park.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Where people can come and you know, you have walkways indicated here and there.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Hopefully you'll keep the tourists from walking on the stone walls and.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: Understood.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: But you know, there's no guarantee. So really filling them in is best. But you don't want to deprive people of the beautiful spectacle of a city. For example, in Crete, it was a port city. It was right on the sea.
It was literally covered by the sea to some extent. And that part was lost, of course, but you had ship sheds and, you know, and it was a whole life spread out there in front of you. And it's wonderful for people to be able to see actually how others lived in the past.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny, you always see like these statues like the Colossus arose, but there's no longer any of that existing. Right. Because you know, it got, it got melted down. Right. And you know, and it was an inspiration for the Statue of Liberty. So that's fascinating. I love stuff like that. Obviously I'm a surface level conversation when it comes to your level of expertise, but I love looking stuff like this up.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: Well, great. I mean, that's, that's archaeology needs to interface more with, with the public. I think we've kind of talked back and forth to ourselves long enough.
You know, you feel like there's five people in the world who are interested in my little subject. But no, but you need to popularize and go out and make this accessible to, to the world. I mean, who knows where the next archaeologist is going to come from.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: I mean, there's just so many places of the world that haven't been tapped. Right. I mean, you know, and this is coming from somebody, you know, just in Michigan. But the world's much bigger than your backyard or your zip code.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Well, and there's plenty of archaeology in Michigan too. Native American sites, very important.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, and you know, just being able to, every time you drive, there's a story or a history behind that road, that woods, that, that building or what's underneath it. And I think too often people look at things at the surface level.
Now you are a prolific author and obviously I think I've just touched on your archaeological, archaeological work as well as your nun work. But I'm really fascinated about you as the author and you have several best selling books as well too. How did you transition into authorship?
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Well, I, I grew up in a family that loved books. I mean, we read aloud to each other as entertainment. And my cousin and I would sit around and you know, write many novels as, as just to have fun. And so it, it was not a huge jump. And this same cousin had actually written and published a book by the time I retired. So I, I thought, well, shoot, it's something you can really do. So I just got in there and started Writing, you know, read a lot and.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: I looked at lectures on, Went to conferences and things is to see what the procedure was.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: How to produce a text and then how to. How to get it out there too. So I went through all those hoops and, and then started writing. And it was easier than I expected in some ways maybe because I had a fair bit of stuff to say.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Listen, not a lot of people could come from that background, you know. You know, you hear people all the time that want to write a book, but you have a. The background. And, you know, and I say this respectfully to people who write, you know, you have a large story to tell about the things that you want to talk about.
Yeah. And the basis of your writing was based on a lot of lived experiences that you had. And how do you weave historical fiction, you know, because those are always funny when you watch a movie, you watch a show, and then you have the sub. The people who come on, you know, and say, that's not what really happened. But I was really entertained. Right. I mean, we're here to be entertained, so.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Well, in the first place, it sort of harks back to what we were talking about a minute ago, the idea of bringing history to the world in a popular way so people can understand it and it isn't so dry and boring, you know, it becomes something living. So that's kind of how I saw my. My writing as well as my teaching. It was a matter of sort of slipping some solid, reliable history in with a human story so that people could enjoy the story, maybe learn a little something about human nature, which of course, always what a novelist is trying to do, but then also learn some genuine histories. Most of, or I guess pretty nearly all of my books start with a historical event or a fact or people who are real. And then you just sort of turn your imagination loose and think, well, why did King so and so make this decision and not something else? You know, what kind of person does that mean he was? Or what sort of factors was he dealing with? And you just, you put yourself in their head and you just start.
Start living forward. And the story unfolds as it would in real life, according to the decisions you make, for sure.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: And so you have several different novel series, you know, the Lord Hanni Mysteries. What is. Can we go into details about that, please?
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah. That one is set in ancient Egypt and its colonies, and it centers on a real person. Lord Hani was a diplomat whom we encounter in the Amarna letters. And that's a diplomatic correspondence that was found in the capital of the pharaoh Akhenaten. So it deals with a lot of interactions between Egypt and other countries or Egyptian diplomats abroad in the middle of the 14th century BC. And so wonderful. There were so many references to Hani. Different missions he was sent on, different people he interacted with. I started turning those into novels that were set in a really exciting period of Egyptian history, which is when Akhenaten, this heretic pharaoh that the father pharaoh people know about, it's him. When he came to the throne, there was a huge social and religious upheaval. So in addition to being missioned out on these various diplomatic missions, Hani would have had to deal with all of this upheaval at home. And so I made him come from a family that had priests of Amun Ra, which means they would have been right on the front line of these attacks, you know, the social upheaval. So it just gave me a way to talk about that and introduce people to the kind of a real trauma I think a lot of families would have encountered in a moment.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: Do you ever find, like. Obviously, you know, because sometimes, and I say this respectfully, when movies come out, right, and then they get banned from certain countries because of the depiction of. Do you ever run into those issues where you're like, hey, I'm just telling a fictitious story about a historical character, but it can run afoul to some locations on their history?
[00:14:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that could happen. No one. No one has ever given me any static about.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: I'm glad.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. Because that's not easy to do.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: Deal with, you know.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You do deal with individual readers who were. Who might be offended by something. But, you know, you think about in advance. You think about. I, I have to deal with this. Truthfully, it's. But it's according to my opinion, other people are free to have other opinions, you know, so you just. I'm sorry if this offends you, but I'm writing for a bigger public than one and everybody's in a different take.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: And you're free to read something else too.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: So. And then we have the Empire at Twilight. Can we talk about that? That's about the Hittite empire.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah. And this was the. The first one that I started. I've written some later.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: But it. It takes place in an empire which is very little known today. The Hittites inhabited what is now Turkey in the Bronze Age.
They were spoken Indo European language, like Latin and Greek.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: I saw that.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah. It's sort of interesting. And they were Warlike, but that was not their.
Not what attracted me about them. They had a very sort of noble code of ethics. Whether they lived by it, I don't know, but it was there so that you were not supposed to go to war unless you absolutely had to, to defend your country. And the king was not absolute. He was answerable to a kind of a council that was composed of all the people in the government. And so, you know, some traits that we recognize as very modern.
He wasn't an absolute monarch, in fact, in the way that the Egyptian king was. So I wanted to kind of tap into that interesting thread. We don't know a whole lot about them in some ways, but we do have enough documents to, you know, we know some things that happened to them and we get some glimpses into the personality of their readers. So, you know, that seemed like an interesting place to. To start.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: I would certainly be a fan of that work. I have to imagine, like, just in my head, I'm like, I gotta imagine like with all the movies and shows that come out, and I don't want to, you know, in case something is in the works. But this seems like some stuff that would just be a fascinating TV series, miniseries.
Yeah. I mean, just. Just because of all the things that we get a chance to watch on television. So I hope that, you know, that there's an opportunity for you. You know, obviously I hope it's favorable for you, but if there's an opportunity for your work to be displayed in various other medium, I would be a fan to watch it as well too.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: That would be great, you know, from your mouth to God's ear, as they say. I.
Yeah, it's not easy to get picked for a series, but sure, it's not.
I think in particular, I think the Egyptian stories would be interesting.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: I mean, I'm just. Because the thing is, one of my questions too is what are some of. And there's another series obviously I want to talk to you about as well too, but what are some of the misconceptions about it? Ancient Egypt, if I could ask.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: I'm sorry, I didn't pick up on that.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: What are some of the misconceptions? Because there's so many series that are made on. On Egypt. What are some of the misconceptions that we see on in TV and film that you have found out, like, hey, that's really not true, or they did this instead.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Well, I have a kind of a pet peeve about the way Akhenaten and Nefertiti are treated in most.
I mean, somehow he's gotten to be this hero, you know, the first monotheist and all, this benevolent person who gave everything to his country. He was a. He was an absolute monarch who just drove his country to bankruptcy to further his own ideas, which were not monotheistic, by the way.
It was a political move in order to curb the power of the Amun priesthood. And it was devastating. You know, you can like it or not, but the Almond Priest had held about 40% of the land in Egypt. And you take that away and put it all in the king's little parcel there. And I mean, it makes a bad situation worse from what I can tell. So I think that has been treated very naively. And you won't find any Egyptologists who like him, but you'll find an awful lot of readers of popular literature who do. And so, yeah, if I can blacken his name a little, that's awesome.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Okay. You know, because I was just curious about that. I was like, how does that get woven? You know, because obviously people, you know, fiction can, can tell one side and if you don't research those particular things, it could ultimately become the truth, so to speak. You know.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, as I've said before, everybody's entitled to an opinion, but you know, if you look at the facts and examine them with much depth, it's. It was not as pretty as, as we like to think.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Oh, you know, I watched a documentary, you know, when they were talking, I think they were doing like, I'm prefacing this. It was, it was either about the pyramids or was about how they were doing with like to irrigate water systems. And everything was being obviously chiseled by hand, so to speak. Right. And there were thousands and thousands of people.
They were. And it was so detailed, they could even tell if people had back and foot and physical problems based upon how the stone, how these things were laid upon each other. And it was so immaculate and so detailed. And they're doing all these things without, you know, a book or a reference point of how to actually do this? And they're doing it from scratch. That's got to be something during your, your work that you have to sit back. How did these people manage to make things so even without any sort of traditional math?
[00:19:57] Speaker B: It is, it is amazing. But it just goes to show human beings are really smart. If you give them a problem, they go out and solve it with perhaps very primitive tools and simple principles like water lies level. You know, it's.
People have tried to Reproduce the accuracy of the pyramids. And they can't do it.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Isn't that a.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: The good news for the king of Egypt was that he had a limitless supply of work. And they were not slaves, by the way. They were citizens paying their taxes in labor. So they would, you know, they would owe the king so many weeks or months of labor. And if they were skilled, if they were a stone cutter, well, you know, all better. But if they were just a farmer or something, they would either provide food for the workmen or they'd get out there and haul rocks or something.
So it was, it was almost limitlessly funded because the king owned all the resources and he had, you know, the best of all the workmen at his disposal, and it was just incredibly motivated.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: You had to crop an unlimited group of people to do it.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And of course, the fact that the Nile river was really the highway of the country made it possible to ship huge, heavy things right up. They would dig channels and, and basins right up to the work site, and so they could float these monstrous stones right up to where they needed them.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: And then just saw that in the documentary as well, too. And I, I don't remember if it was that or Greece, but they talked about that there might have been the largest boat in history at one point.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: The pyramids. I, I know. Well, I don't know. They. There were some pretty big Greek boats in Egypt once the Greeks took over, but.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: They used to float, for example, obelisks, these great long, single pieces of stone.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: On a huge boat that was so long and thin that it, You. It. It should have cracked down like that.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Trussed it up so to hold it against the weight. It was. Yeah, it was experience. They did these things over and over and, and perfected their techniques and learned from mistakes. And also they wrote down what they did so the next generation could improve on it. So.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Absolutely amazing.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: It's truly impressive and all. One of my characters in the latest series of books is a physician, so that has let me sort of investigate Egyptian medicine, which was remarkably sophisticated for the period. It was far and away more scientific than anything that was going on around them.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: That's amazing.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: So, you know, it was a. It was. They're genuinely impressive people, Ani's Daughter mysteries.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: How. What's. Can we talk about that book series?
[00:22:46] Speaker B: Okay, well, that's a cozy mystery series. It's. It's kind of the least serious of all the books, at least based on historical events. It's.
Hani had five children and the youngest Daughter is sort of irrepressible, sassy little kid who grows up through the Hani mysteries. We see her start off at 7. And, yeah, she's 24 when the books end, so she gets her own series, she and her. Her partner and a young girl that they have adopted as an apprentice.
And so it's not about their work as doctors, but that plays into it. And we see them analyzing poisons, for example, in a primitive way, and treating wounds and even doing things like amputating. So it's. Let me do some research into a really interesting area. We happen to have five or six old papyrus manuscripts about medicine. So we know they had case plugs. It would give symptoms and say, you know, if you see these symptoms, this is what's wrong. This is what you do.
If it reaches the point where you start seeing this symptom or that symptom, tell them you can't treat them. So, you know, yeah, it's. It's really interesting. And it's. It's an interesting mix of sort of witch doctory, you know, hocus pocus, you might say, and genuine sort of folk medicine where you use things that probably were proved over time to have real value. For example, willow bark, which contains salicylic acid, and that's what's in aspirin. So like, like other folk doctors, they knew something about herbalism and how to use medicine and things, but also it was mixed with magic and with religion. So they would say prayers and put spells on people and things. But even there, if you think about the idea of holistic medicine, you know, if people believe that this is helping them, then their own body starts kicking in with the immune system, and it probably does give them a little boost. So between the real science and the.
The sort of pseudo science, they. They were highly successful.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: I think it's always amazing, too, because, you know, you look at a lot of the Latin terms that still are prevalent today when it comes to the use of medicine and, you know, use of things and, you know, the origin of things, that some of them still have the same original terminologies as well, too.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Right. It still, you know, works. It still matches what we see.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: This is an interesting factoid. You'll like this because you're interested.
You know, the RX that we use, that started out as the eye of Horus, this long eye with a thing sticking down, that was the hawk's eye with the line of feathers that comes down on the hawk. So that was originally what that was. And Then the Greek physicians in Egypt turned it into letters because that.
Yeah, that's kind of fun.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: That's amazing.
And like I said, unless you're in that. And then we just, we default to stuff just because that's what all we think of. But we never, you know.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Unless you kind of go into it.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's fascinating and it's amazing. What does. What's the life like of a retired archaeologist?
Obviously, you're a prolific writer, so you've segued into authorship, but called for things like to.
Or anything like that.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Not really, because I, I wasn't a specialist in any particular area. I, I chose to go general.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: And I taught a wide, wide variety of classes, which means that, you know, it's not like if you find some potsherd from the 12th century, you call on Nikki. I mean, she. It's. I was not that kind of. Okay, drilling deep expert on any particular thing, so.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: So, no, my, my life as an archaeologist is. That's part of the past now, except that I'm still doing research for my books. That's. I try to keep up with, you know, the latest, what's going on, just so I don't present falsities to my readers.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: I would certainly suggest that even though you're retired, it's to me, you still have a highly level of skills that most of the world would never be able to tap into. So certainly just.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Well, they would if they studied it.
Just kind of take a little time and do. It's basically all.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. Is there anything that we have not discussed about your career and life that you would like the audience to know?
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Well, I, I, as I mentioned, I was an art. An archaeological artist for a while. A lot of, all my life I've done a lot of visual art, painting and other stuff. And I think that actually has influenced my writing to some extent because if you paint, it makes you very conscious of what things look like, you know, effects of light and shadows and stuff like this.
And then you want to present that to people in words as part of your. The background and the setting of your book as you present it. Yeah, I think that has colored me as a writer, I hope in a good way.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: I think that I've always said this to many of my fascinating guests on my show, but this is certainly one of. One of the top for me because I just, I always watch of all those documentaries and books that I read, and I'm a Wikipedia, obviously. Wikipedia. I'm sure you're like it's not accurate. Right. Don't just Wikipedia everything.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Actually not bad.
People don't let it stay inaccurate very long.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: Right.
Scholars and people that, you know, that update it. But all the things that I read, you know, and I'm like, wow, I get a chance to talk to somebody who lives this, this, this medium in this lifestyle. And so, you know, this was certainly one of the more fascinating opportunities. And I always, I feel like half an hour is kind of an injustice to all the things I wanted to dive into. But I want to be very cognizant and conscious of your time as well too. So I look, I hope that I get a chance to watch one of your tv your books get adapted to tv, film or miniseries, you know, put out good vibes. Listen, you know, I, I'm just a podcaster, but I certainly think that there's an opportunity opportunity and an interested audience in has been an absolute thrill and an honor to be with ML Homes on the pot of the Randomness of Nothing podcast.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: I appreciate it. And you have a wonderful day.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Same to you.
